I don't know whether to be flattered or astounded
But I genuinely hope you enjoy, and are blessed by your time on this website
So far things are going to form and I have been in several debates already and it is only day two.
jesus is not God
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So far things are going to form and I have been in several debates already and it is only day two.
You were right to think I am male know1, it is me who needs to apologise to Mark.
However I'm not happy with your understanding heart, soul and spirit? I read heart as body which gives us body, soul and spirit.
If you don't mind my mentioning it, you people seem to be friendlier over there than many in the US. I travel around the country a lot and have got to meet many people, even many on this site are not very nice either.
That is an interest observation sir, that you see the heart as being the body in this scripture. I don't get many people questioning me concerning the heart, so thank you. For indeed it is the body, not of the physical though but of the spirit.
So, why do you think it is the body of the person?
If you begin at verse 11 it is talking about mankind, i.e. you and me which means it is OUR heart the Bible is talking about.
(Heb 4:11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man (you and me) fall after the same example of unbelief.
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, (this is OUR soul, spirit and body) and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (the heart is a physical part of the body).
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Okay, I understand some of what you are saying, but I'm missing the heart part being part of the physical body. Are you referring it to the mind of man, as in the brain? If it is, you are not alone. Most people see it that way.
Psa_22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
This cannot be of the physical body, can it? For the natural heart or brain/mind will not live forever.
They say the heart is the seat of the emotions so I grant you it can be seen as either spiritual or physical and it does talk about "joints and marrow" which is obviously the body. Either way I don't think this train of thought can lead to a positive conclusion?
Far more constructive I think is to ask you about the Spirit of God which is there all the way through the Old Testament and is the Second person of the Trinity, so how would a none Trinitarian explain away the two persons of the Trinity thus far.
Gen 1:2 WEB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 41:38 WEB - And Pharaoh said to his servants, Can we find [such a man] as this [is], a man in whom the spirit of God [is]?
Exd 31:3 WEB - And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exd 35:31 WEB - And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
Num 24:2 WEB - And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding [in his tents] according to their tribes, and the spirit of God came upon him.
1Sa 10:10 WEB - And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
1Sa 11:6 WEB - And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1Sa 19:20 WEB - And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing [as] appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
1Sa 19:23 WEB - And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.
2Ch 15:1 WEB - And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:
2Ch 24:20 WEB - And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood above the people, and said to them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.
Job 27:3 WEB - All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;
Job 33:4 WEB - The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Eze 11:24 WEB - Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.
Mat 3:16 WEB - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up immediately out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 12:28 WEB - But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come to you.
Rom 8:9 WEB - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. Now if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
Rom 8:14 WEB - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 15:19 WEB - Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and around to Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1Cr 2:11 WEB - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God
1Cr 2:14 WEB - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 3:16 WEB - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 7:40 WEB - But she is happier if she so remain, after my judgment; and I think also that I have the Spirit of God
1Cr 12:3 WEB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God, calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:30 WEB - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed to the day of redemption.
This is not meant to judge those who do or do not believe in the trinity. Prior to becoming a Christian I loved to research religion, science and history. I still love researching things.
Take a look at the history of Gods people and their constant incorporation of false religious rituals and customs in their true worship. The Israelites were constantly reproved for their interfaith.
Take a look at Christianity today and how many false religious teachings and rituals are incorporated in their worship today. Holidays, emblems, buildings etc…
Although most false teachings are clearly identifiable, many of us can easily find scriptures to support our cause or belief.
In examining the trinity belief think of this. The two most important beings are Jesus and God. We would want to believe who they say they are. Throughout the scriptures Jesus says he is the Son of God. He never once says I am God. When God himself identifies Jesus he says “This is my son”. Why do we want more than what they say?
The existence of triad of gods is in all the world powers prior to Christ and in Rome. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. With so many pagan customs and rituals incorporated in Christianity could this be one? The trinity should be the most solid teaching in the Bible. Taught by God and Jesus. The Jews, Hebrews and Samaritans.
Take a look at the history of Gods people and their constant incorporation of false religious rituals and customs in their true worship. The Israelites were constantly reproved for their interfaith.
Take a look at Christianity today and how many false religious teachings and rituals are incorporated in their worship today. Holidays, emblems, buildings etc…
Although most false teachings are clearly identifiable, many of us can easily find scriptures to support our cause or belief.
In examining the trinity belief think of this. The two most important beings are Jesus and God. We would want to believe who they say they are. Throughout the scriptures Jesus says he is the Son of God. He never once says I am God. When God himself identifies Jesus he says “This is my son”. Why do we want more than what they say?
The existence of triad of gods is in all the world powers prior to Christ and in Rome. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. With so many pagan customs and rituals incorporated in Christianity could this be one? The trinity should be the most solid teaching in the Bible. Taught by God and Jesus. The Jews, Hebrews and Samaritans.
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Tintin
Guest
God in three persons, blessed Trinity.
Not three gods. 1 God in 3 persons (Father, Son, Spirit).
Not three gods. 1 God in 3 persons (Father, Son, Spirit).
Here is what the Father says to the Son: Hebrews 1:8-12
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
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Tintin
Guest
That means if the Father Himself is allowing Jesus Christ to sit upon his right hand that we ought to think likewise as Jesus is God, see what the Father said to Him?, That means God the Father hath exalted His Son, Jesus Christ as heir over all with authority over heaven and earth, as His Son too is creator of these works, and again His Son will come to defeat the greatest adversary of God, existence has ever known, and in His hands are the keys to heaven and hell...
On another website, someone put up AN ALTERNATIVE conversation between Christ and Peter:
But what about you? JESUS ASKED Who do you say that I am?
Peter replied
'YOU ARE The Christ, the son of the living God.
Jesus replied.
'No Peter, that is not enough. You must believe I am an independant member of the Trinity, and have co existed, alongside the Spirit and the Father for all ages past. Each one of us is God, one God in three persons. Iin the ontological sense of Trinity I am equal to the Father, but in the economic sense subject to Him. Then you must correctly understand, predestination, free will, infant Baptism, the rapture..........................
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danschance
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You seem to argue that the doctrine of the trinity is false because there are many pagan examples of triads of gods. Using your own logic, we can also conclude the Judaism's monotheism is false because many pagan religions have numerous examples of monotheism. As you can see, this line of reasoning (AKA: Guilt by association) is absurd.
The doctrine of the trinity does not have any origins in pagan religion. It comes from various scripture verses. Proof of this comes from the early church fathers who never once said "we believe in the trinity because this pagan religion has a similar belief. Instead they quote scripture.
So if you do not believe in the trinity doctrine, they only way to logically and honestly prove your point is not thru some logical fallacy but prove your point from the scriptures. I believe in the trinity because it is revealed to us in scripture and I have never once ever said, implied or believed that the trinity doctrine is of pagan origen. In fact there are no trinity doctrines in the pagan realm. The trinity doctrine remains unique to christianity and is not a triad of gods. Your logic is incorrect and rests on a "guilt by association" premise.
The Israelites fell into apostasy and worshipped false gods, for example the Golden Calf, the trouble is they called these false gods "Lord" which causes us to confuse these gods with the true God.
This is why the Ten Commandments begin like this
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
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oOfallen_angelOo
Guest
great response!
There's actually instances in which the jews were ready to stone Jesus for claiming to be one with God - he was even crucified on an account of blaspheme for saying he was God, because that's the only " wrong" according to mankind that Jesus could be crucified for.
As far as the trinity - those are specific titles God goes by in order to fulfill certain duties beneath them.
Father is the title God chose to fulfill prophetical element and also reveal a deeper relationship God has with his people, that is, like a Father figure.
The Son is the title of Jesus Christ whom came as God in the flesh to be the example for God's children ( us) and show the way on how to get to God. He also had to fulfill his place on the cross which took our place in death and made the hope of salvation a reality for those seeking it.
The Holy Spirit is the final main title of God which is God's divine insightful nature of wisdom and profound mysteries. This is also the name used in regard to 2nd coming Christ, in whom Jesus calls the " Counselor," for in accordance to the Holy Spirit, they would bring truth and wisdom of God for salvation.
These things occur at a set time period, in a course of 6,000 years; we're passed the age of the Son, so one can conclude that we are living in the final age of the Holy Spirit.
Actually the earliest 'church fathers' (Clement I, Ignatius, Polycarp) did not believe or talk about the trinity. They did believe Jesus was the Son of God of course.
The ideas which eventually came to be the trinity was introduced when people like Clement of Alexandria started teaching. He was a big follower of Plato and the Stoics, quoting them regularly in his letters and works.
He taught Origen and others.
Athanasius and later bishops were all influenced by the teachings of Clement of Alexandria and Origen.
To think that the church fathers only used scripture is proved false in the writings of Clement of Alexandria and others.
So actually history shows there was a very strong belief if non-Biblical philosophy in the church from the end of the second century.
Even before that the beliefs of the Jews were influenced strongly by their time in exile. Indeed by the time of Christ there were even popular writings about fallen angels (the Book of Enoch) which warranted deconstruction by both Jude and Peter. These ideas would have been foreign to those of David's time and before. Indeed that is because they are foreign ideas (based upon the zaroastrianism of Persia).
I'll address the main topic at another time but it is important to be clear that the beliefs and doctrines of the Christian church were added to and altered from the very beginning. This is important because it should force us to look to scripture and not to what we are taught by others. The Bible was given to us because man was not to be trusted, even the leaders of the church that came after the apostles.
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psychomom
Guest
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danschance
Guest
Clement "(Jesus)is truly most manifest Deity."
Ignatius " For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan . . ."
Polycarp "yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead."
The above three quotes disagree with your assertion that they (only) referred to Jesus as the son of God. However, let us assume they all only stated that Jesus is the son of God. Don't you realize that by calling Jesus the son of God, you are also saying He is deity? To the people at that time, it is clear from scripture that calling some one a son of (whatever) means they possessed that nature of (something). For a scriptural example of this Jesus referred to two disciples as "Sons of thunder". This did not mean they were the offspring of thunder but it meant they were like thunder. So calling Jesus the son of God meant He was like God.
Now you also said "Actually the earliest 'church fathers' (Clement I, Ignatius, Polycarp) did not believe or talk about the trinity." While it is true they did not use the word trinity ((Greek Trias, triados), they did use the trinitarian formula of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being equal and in unity.
Ignatius wrote: "Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual."
Polycarp wrote: "For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen."
Justin Martyr wrote: "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein."
I could post much more but I think this proves you are in error in your assertions. I will not address other assertions that pagan influences crept into Christendom because that is nothing more than a red herring. Arguments based on "Guilt by association" has nothing to do with proof. It is nothing more than blind suspension.