jesus is not God

[shroom2]

Here's a question: if Jesus is not God, then how can He be in you?

The bible says he is:

Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

As I mentioned, Jesus has been highly exalted. He is effectively running things for now. When it's all said and done, he'll turn everything over to God.

 

[shroom2]

...My point is that Christ was, again, preexistent. The way it is shown in the passage is in how Paul presents Christ as having been in the form of God, yet having taken on the form of a servant. He has God's form and a servant's form. Only God can have God's form (i.e. His outward appearance, as seen in passages such as Genesis 18)...

Christ was not pre-existent, except in God's foreknowledge. He began (genosis, I believe) in the womb of Mary.

Paul does not say "having been" in the form of God.

(KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(NIV) Who, being in very nature God [ trinitarian slant ], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(NKJV) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(NRSV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(YLT) who, being in the form of God, thought 'it' not robbery to be equal to God,

Again, he was in outward appearance God. That is not saying he was God (or is). He always did God's will, exactly what God wanted him to do. He declared God, made Him known. If you want to know God, look at Jesus Christ. Even though he was in outward appearance God, he took on the form of a servant. There was no greater servant.

He did not pre-exist his birth in some other form.

=========================
I am aware I am probably on thin ice on this forum. One of the rules is that you must profess the deity of Christ, something I do not believe in. I enjoy participating on this forum, and hope to continue. I love discussing God and His wonderful Son, and God's word. I am trying to conduct myself in a (mostly) civil manner, even though it's hard at times, especially when I'm treated with such venom by some here.

Anyway, I hope to be able to hang around.

 

[Grandpa]

Christ was not pre-existent, except in God's foreknowledge. He began (genosis, I believe) in the womb of Mary.

Paul does not say "having been" in the form of God.

(KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(NIV) Who, being in very nature God [ trinitarian slant ], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(NKJV) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(NRSV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(YLT) who, being in the form of God, thought 'it' not robbery to be equal to God,

Again, he was in outward appearance God. That is not saying he was God (or is). He always did God's will, exactly what God wanted him to do. He declared God, made Him known. If you want to know God, look at Jesus Christ. Even though he was in outward appearance God, he took on the form of a servant. There was no greater servant.

He did not pre-exist his birth in some other form.

=========================
I am aware I am probably on thin ice on this forum. One of the rules is that you must profess the deity of Christ, something I do not believe in. I enjoy participating on this forum, and hope to continue. I love discussing God and His wonderful Son, and God's word. I am trying to conduct myself in a (mostly) civil manner, even though it's hard at times, especially when I'm treated with such venom by some here.

Anyway, I hope to be able to hang around.

Its ok. We'll just love you with scripture until you get it.

Colossians 2:9-10

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


John 8:58-59
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus told them He was God. That is why the Jews wanted to kill Him.

Exodus 3:13-14
13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[zackabba]

The bible says he is:

Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

As I mentioned, Jesus has been highly exalted. He is effectively running things for now. When it's all said and done, he'll turn everything over to God.

Yes, Christ is the glory of God. He is the mystery of God. Christ truly is in us through His Spirit.

What I'm confused about is this - I know you don't believe Jesus is God. Yet how can you not see that Christ truly is in believers?

 

[zackabba]

Christ was not pre-existent, except in God's foreknowledge. He began (genosis, I believe) in the womb of Mary.

And yet there is no Scripture that says He "began" in Mary. The Scripture always says that He was born in Mary according to the flesh. It wasn't the first point of His literal existence.


Paul does not say "having been" in the form of God.

(KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(NIV) Who, being in very nature God [ trinitarian slant ], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(NKJV) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(NRSV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(YLT) who, being in the form of God, thought 'it' not robbery to be equal to God,

Again, he was in outward appearance God. That is not saying he was God (or is). He always did God's will, exactly what God wanted him to do. He declared God, made Him known. If you want to know God, look at Jesus Christ. Even though he was in outward appearance God, he took on the form of a servant. There was no greater servant.

1. Then how did He "take on" the form of a servant?
2. I don't really "know God" if I just look at Jesus and He's really not God - how would that make sense?
Say someone asked you if you knew they're dad. You say yes. "Really?" they say. "Where did you talk to him at, or how do you know him?" So, you say that you actually hadn't met they're dad, but you had met them (the person talking to you). How would that make sense, even if they perfectly represented them? You would know what their dad was like, but you wouldn't really know them.

In my case, I truly do know God in Christ, because He Himself is God. This is how He can be in me, yet be at my Father's right hand at the same time. Likewise, the Father can be in me through the Spirit, yet be on His throne at the same time.

=========================
I am aware I am probably on thin ice on this forum. One of the rules is that you must profess the deity of Christ, something I do not believe in. I enjoy participating on this forum, and hope to continue. I love discussing God and His wonderful Son, and God's word. I am trying to conduct myself in a (mostly) civil manner, even though it's hard at times, especially when I'm treated with such venom by some here.

I think you haven't been kicked off because you're respectable and civil. Everyone has times where their feathers get ruffled (some more so than others definitely). I do believe denying Christ's deity is serious, since it is presented so clearly in Scripture, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have a dialogue (not that you're saying we can't - just the opposite).

Anyway, I hope to be able to hang around.

I hope so to! Great discussion.




Grace and Love

 

[Grandpa]

Some things have to be revealed to us. We can't just study it out and expect to come up with the answer.

Reading the bible and praying, asking the Lord to reveal to you Knowledge and Wisdom of Him.

I remember there was a time when I was confused. I didn't know if I should pray to Jesus or not. I thought God might be mad if I pray to someone who is not Him. But then somewhere along the line (Revelation) I realized that praying to Jesus is what started off all my knowledge and wisdom to begin with. So I studied and I prayed for more wisdom and discernment in the Knowledge of Him.

The Lord leads us into Truth. We repent because we have ideas and thoughts that aren't Truth.

Knowing Jesus is God is hard to understand. The natural mind can't grasp it. How can a man be God?

God Humbled Himself and walked among us, As a man, to show His Love for us and to show that He would never leave us nor forsake us.

 

[zackabba]

Some things have to be revealed to us. We can't just study it out and expect to come up with the answer.

Reading the bible and praying, asking the Lord to reveal to you Knowledge and Wisdom of Him.

I remember there was a time when I was confused. I didn't know if I should pray to Jesus or not. I thought God might be mad if I pray to someone who is not Him. But then somewhere along the line (Revelation) I realized that praying to Jesus is what started off all my knowledge and wisdom to begin with. So I studied and I prayed for more wisdom and discernment in the Knowledge of Him.

The Lord leads us into Truth. We repent because we have ideas and thoughts that aren't Truth.

Knowing Jesus is God is hard to understand. The natural mind can't grasp it. How can a man be God?

God Humbled Himself and walked among us, As a man, to show His Love for us and to show that He would never leave us nor forsake us.

Amen and Amen!

 

[shroom2]

...Knowing Jesus is God is hard to understand. The natural mind can't grasp it. How can a man be God?...

Exactly. He can't. But yet so many people try and make it so.

Its ok. We'll just love you with scripture until you get it.

I appreciate the heart, Grandpa.

 

[Bushido8000]

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

Jesus has a God? Isn't Jesus suppose to be God??

 

[luciddream1982]

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

Jesus has a God? Isn't Jesus suppose to be God??

I read this somewhere and it made sense to me...

". I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God: Jesus is pointing out a difference between His relationship with God and the disciples' relationship with God."
i. "He says not 'Our Father': in one sense therefore, He is mine, in another sense He is yours; by nature mine, by grace yours . . . my God, under whom I also am as a man; your God, between whom and you I am a mediator." (Augustine)

Plus...Thomas said this

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If Jesus wasn't God then what Thomas said would have been blasphemous.

 

[zackabba]

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

Jesus has a God? Isn't Jesus suppose to be God??

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)

I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isaiah 45:23)




1. Jesus existed in the form of God, yet took on the form of a bond-servant.


This is parallel to Hebrews 2:14, which says that He "partook" of the "flesh and blood" specifically so that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death (the devil). He was existent as the Son and Word of God, yet took on the form of a bond-servant, thus taking on flesh and blood so that He would be able to take on all of the sins of the world - to destroy it to the uttermost.


What does this also mean?

This also means that, since Jesus took on a human form, He had to have His Father also be His God in order to be a perfect Jew. He had to observe Torah perfectly in His life. He was the embodiment of the Law and the Prophets (what they predicted - see 1 Peter 1:10-12).


2. God tells us through Isaiah that to Him every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance (or, "confess). However, Paul tells us that to Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord - to the glory of His Father, who Himself is God.




So, yes, indeed, since Jesus is now human, He has His Father as His God.




Grace and Love in Christ

 

[zackabba]

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

Jesus has a God? Isn't Jesus suppose to be God??

(Oh, and you wouldn't dare to quote John 20:28, which is a few verses later )

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Christ was not pre-existent, except in God's foreknowledge. He began (genosis, I believe) in the womb of Mary.

Paul does not say "having been" in the form of God.

(KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(NIV) Who, being in very nature God [ trinitarian slant ], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(NKJV) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(NRSV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(YLT) who, being in the form of God, thought 'it' not robbery to be equal to God,

Again, he was in outward appearance God. That is not saying he was God (or is). He always did God's will, exactly what God wanted him to do. He declared God, made Him known. If you want to know God, look at Jesus Christ. Even though he was in outward appearance God, he took on the form of a servant. There was no greater servant.

He did not pre-exist his birth in some other form.

=========================
I am aware I am probably on thin ice on this forum. One of the rules is that you must profess the deity of Christ, something I do not believe in. I enjoy participating on this forum, and hope to continue. I love discussing God and His wonderful Son, and God's word. I am trying to conduct myself in a (mostly) civil manner, even though it's hard at times, especially when I'm treated with such venom by some here.

Anyway, I hope to be able to hang around.

[FONT=&quot]It always helps to be informed before you reach any conclusions concerning opposing views. You somehow think that because a past tense is not used that this can not somehow refer to Christ prior to the incarnation, but this is far from the truth. Philippians 2, which you briefly mentioned, is one of the texts where the Hypostatic Union is in view. That is, Christ didn't cease in His existence as God at the incarnation, but has always continued in His existence as God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων (“Who, existing in the form of God”) [v. 6] speaks to, in the context, and totality of Philippians 2, a pre-existing condition (more on this below); however, being a present participial phrase which is linked to a clause with an aorist verb (ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος [“becoming in the likeness of men”]), it indicates the state of the subject when, and as the action of the main verb is performed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] That is, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]μορφῇ θεοῦ is not just a condition that was at one time held onto before “becoming in the likeness of men,” but one that was retained while the action was performed, and even after the action took place, and therefore, continues to exist into the “now” or present. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Not only was Christ “existing” (not “existed,” or “was”) in the μορφῇ θεοῦ prior to the incarnation [v. 7], but also at the very moment in history that Paul penned these words to the Philippians (that is, after the death, burial, resurrection, and glorious ascension to the right hand of the Father), Christ remained, and forevermore remains in the μορφῇ θεοῦ (“form of God”). And this is why B.B. Warfield, while commenting on this passage, said,[/FONT]

“Paul is not telling us here, then, what Our Lord was once, but rather what He already was, or, better, what in His intrinsic nature He is; he is not describing a past mode of existence of Our Lord.”
​

[FONT=&quot]The order of events in Philippians 2 is of much significance, because it recognizes that Christ existed prior to His birth at Bethlehem, something that is so commonly overlooked by Socinian types. The sequence of events in vv. 6-7 signifies a prior state, that is, “in the form of God,” and then a subsequent “form of a servant.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The picture of Christ’s humility begins with His existence “in the form of God,” which is prior chronologically to His entrance into the world at Bethlehem when he took “the form of a servant, being born (or ‘made’) in the likeness of men” (v. 7). Imprisoned between these two parallel statements is the means in which the activity from “form of God” to the “form of a servant” takes place. So often we skim over the text, and in doing so, miss something that is key. If we were to place the sequence of events presented here in reverse order, it would not be difficult to perceive that prior to “being born in the likeness of men” there was a voluntary act of self-emptying on behalf of Christ, which is to say the least, remarkably striking. If Christ was active in His own “kenosis” (which occurred prior to “being born in the likeness of men”) then He was not simply the passive envoy of the Father as modern day Monarchianism (Socinianism) teaches, rather, this is a strong implication of preexistence, from the fact that Christ Himself acted in the event of the incarnation.

Secondarily, I also would just like to point out [/FONT][FONT=&quot]that the text goes on to tell us, that though Christ existed in the morphe Theou, He did not regard equality with God something to be exploited. Obviously, the Apostle is not telling us that Christ did not consider equality with Himself, which is contra the Oneness claim that Christ did not pre-exist with the Father prior to the incarnation.[/FONT]

 

[Imaan]

I Believe in Mesiah, but one question which I never understood...
Why God must sacrifice his dear son in order to forgive our sins?
we believe God is so kind so if it is, he could forgive us without any need to sacrifice his son, couldn't he?
he could forgive the original sin and make the human clean of that as we believe he is omnipotent, why he did that?

 

[Grandpa]

I Believe in Mesiah, but one question which I never understood...
Why God must sacrifice his dear son in order to forgive our sins?
we believe God is so kind so if it is, he could forgive us without any need to sacrifice his son, couldn't he?
he could forgive the original sin and make the human clean of that as we believe he is omnipotent, why he did that?

Why he did that? Good question.

I think He did forgive the original sin and make the human clean but sin is so powerful that it takes a lot for US to believe we have been forgiven.

God knows you are forgiven. But do you know it??

 

[Saul_Durian]

I Believe in Mesiah, but one question which I never understood...
Why God must sacrifice his dear son in order to forgive our sins?
we believe God is so kind so if it is, he could forgive us without any need to sacrifice his son, couldn't he?
he could forgive the original sin and make the human clean of that as we believe he is omnipotent, why he did that?

Even more silly is the question...

Why did God, get a woman pregnant with himself, so he could be born, then tortured and murdered. So that he could forgive our Sins against ...him. Sins that he gave us the ability and knowledge to commit.

 

[eagle4031]

the resurection is proof.
eye witnesses stated in the Bible plus independant, non- believing historians have also written of it.
Jesus brother James did not believe until after this event

 

[Saul_Durian]

the resurection is proof.
eye witnesses stated in the Bible plus independant, non- believing historians have also written of it.
Jesus brother James did not believe until after this event

I am going to have to argue that one. The Bible is not a history book.

Nor did any contemporary historian ever confirm the resurrection of Jesus. With the exception Josephus, in 37 A.D. But his work is under extreme scrutiny form not only the scientific community, but the Vatican as well, as evidence shows his writings were tampered with. Regardless, he isn't a contemporary historian anyway.

There is a ton of evidence to support that he did exist. Nobody that has looked into it can really question if he actually existed or not. But as for the resurrection. A person can only specualte on minimal evidence.

And James converting isn't really valid proof. There is no way to verify it.


Now all that being said, I am not claiming that it didn't happen, or that it did. I am simply stating there is not enough evidence to support it.

 

[zackabba]

I Believe in Mesiah, but one question which I never understood...
Why God must sacrifice his dear son in order to forgive our sins?
we believe God is so kind so if it is, he could forgive us without any need to sacrifice his son, couldn't he?
he could forgive the original sin and make the human clean of that as we believe he is omnipotent, why he did that?

Read Hebrews 2:14 for one part of the answer.

Ultimately, it's for His glory. Angels cannot be redeemed, so they cannot glorify Him in that way. We can be redeemed, and so we can glorify Him for redeeming us. God created us so that He would be glorified, and so that we would have our ultimate joy in Him.

 

[zackabba]

Even more silly is the question...

Why did God, get a woman pregnant with himself, so he could be born, then tortured and murdered. So that he could forgive our Sins against ...him. Sins that he gave us the ability and knowledge to commit.

Well, that is a pretty silly question, especially from one who has "memorized most of the Bible by reading"

Why? So He could be glorified, showering His mercy upon us.