Z
zackabba
Guest
1. If Jesus wasn't God, then why did Thomas call Him such? (John 20:28)
2. So who was the Spirit spoken of in 1 Peter 1:11?
jesus is not God
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1. If Jesus wasn't God, then why did Thomas call Him such? (John 20:28)
2. So who was the Spirit spoken of in 1 Peter 1:11?
John 20:28 - A Verse Used to Support the Trinity | BiblicalUnitarian.com
Jesus Christ. It says nothing about him being God.
Z
zackabba
Guest
John 20:28 - A Verse Used to Support the Trinity | BiblicalUnitarian.com
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)
1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today. (so...was Thomas then not calling him God?)
2. Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, the expression used by Thomas is certainly understandable. (It was so "understandable" that Jesus didn't even care to rebuke Thomas for calling Him God) On the other hand, to make Thomas say that Jesus was “God,” and thus 1/3 of a triune God (A "1/3"? No. Jesus is *fully* God, not a "1/3" of God), seems incredible (yeah, it does, when you begin with the presupposition that Jesus is absolutely *not* God). In Concessions of Trinitarians, Michaelis, a Trinitarian (...who is this guy?), writes:
I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense” [Michaelis is quoted by Dana, ref. below]. (In short, I don't wanna' look bad in front of all the other "scholars." "whom shall I ever reverence in the highest agree"...well, God! And Thomas called Jesus God...so, was He now an idol?)
Remember that it was common at that time to call God’s representatives “God,” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples. When Jacob wrestled with “God,” it is clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4—For more on that, see the note on Genesis 16:7-13) (and this angel couldn't *possibly* be God because it's too *incredible.*).
3. There are many Trinitarian authorities who admit that there was no knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine at the time Thomas spoke. For example, if the disciples believed that Jesus was “God” in the sense that many Christians do, they would not have “all fled” just a few days before when he was arrested. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God…and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:19-21). The Bible is clear that these disciples thought Jesus was a “prophet.” Yes, they did...and, *incredibly,* they thought Him to be God as well.Even though some of the apostles realized that Jesus was the Christ, they knew that according to the Old Testament prophecies, the Christ, the anointed of God, was to be a man. Who says He wasn't? There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God (John 1:1 John 20:28 ahem), and Thomas, upon seeing the resurrected Christ, was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise. Right. He wasn't. Jesus was just as much the Son of God (oops, sorry,...the son of God - got to lowercase that "son") as He was before Thomas confessed Him as His Lord and His God
4. The context of the verse shows that its subject is the fact that Jesus was alive. And in the same book Jesus told them that He would raise Himself from the dead...hmm.... Only three verses earlier, Thomas had ignored the eyewitness testimony of the other apostles when they told him they had seen the Lord. The resurrection of Christ was such a disputed doctrine (?) that Thomas did not believe it (the other apostles had not either...no, they actually *did*), and thus Jesus’ death would have caused Thomas to doubt that Jesus was who he said he was—the Messiah. Thomas believed Jesus was dead. Thus, he was shocked and astonished when he saw—and was confronted by— Jesus Himself. Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, i.e., that God and Christ Himselfhad raised the man Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.” ...Jews didn't call emperors, nor any other authority, "god" - that would have been idolatry. They believed in *one* God, and Thomas confessed Jesus as that one God.There is no mention of the Trinity in the context , and there is no reason to believe that the disciples would have even been aware of such a doctrine. Thomas spoke what he would have known: that the man Jesus who he thought was dead was alive and had divine authority.
Thomas: My Lord and My God!
Peter: Thomas.
Thomas: Wha - what?
Peter:...ya' forgot the Holy Spirit.
Thomas: Oh, your right - The Father, the Son, and the Spirit! All one being, and three persons!
(Peter pats Thomas on the back)
Peter: Now you got it! This is absolutely relevant to the situation!
Jesus Christ. It says nothing about him being God.
As to this salvation, the prophets (the prophets of the Old Testament)who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
Again - who is the Spirit of Christ? It can't be the Father.
Well my beliefs are as listed in scripture it's not saying a god it's saying God, and Jesus is the express image of God tell me how you can not believe in the Trinity after hearing John 1:1, and as for God calling the Father God, we find understanding in hebrews that he was made a little lower then the angels for a time until crucified then he resurrected on high and was seated on the right hand of the Majesty on High, and God (Jesus Christ) is coming back to judge the nations.
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zackabba
Guest
It's one thing to acknowledge that Christ is indeed God - it's another thing altogether to embrace that very God who has been perfectly revealed in Christ.
That Christ is God is not something to just keep in the back of our heads - it should permeate our worship, our prayer, and our Life, hidden in Christ.
That Christ is God is not something to just keep in the back of our heads - it should permeate our worship, our prayer, and our Life, hidden in Christ.
Right there that doesn't make sense. He was seated on the right hand of the Majesty. Who was the Majesty? If it is Jesus, why did he sit to the right hand of himself?
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GreenNnice
Guest
Jesus is PART of the trinity - God, the Father, God, the Son, and, God, the Holy Spirit. Three DISTINCT persons as One. I know hard to make sense of but the verse you use, SolD, for reference is true. Christ is SEATED at the right hand of God. He is surely then His own person. 
God bless you.
Jesus bless you.
May the Holy Spirit bless you too .
God bless you.
Jesus bless you.
May the Holy Spirit bless you too .
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zackabba
Guest
You're confused about the Trinity I believe - the Father and the Son are not the same person. He's not "seated next to Himself" - if I were seated next to you, seeing that we are both human beings, then would you say that I am sitting next to myself?
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Nalu
Guest
Jesus is PART of the trinity - God, the Father, God, the Son, and, God, the Holy Spirit. Three DISTINCT persons as One. I know hard to make sense of but the verse you use, SolD, for reference is true. Christ is SEATED at the right hand of God. He is surely then His own person.
God bless you.
Jesus bless you.
May the Holy Spirit bless you too .
Yep GreenNnice, we agree.
Only God has the power to forgive sins, Salvation is only made available to men by God.
Jesus is God. Whoever does not believe Jesus is God is not born again (Saved).
Jesus is the only way a person can be Saved......Nalu, your'e friendly neighborhood Truth Seeker.
Absolutely, positively, not true. You cannot provide a single scripture stating that.
I believe in God the Father and in his son Jesus Christ, my Lord and savior. I am saved.
Correct.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
You are not saved. He who does not know the Son, does not know the father. You deny the deity of Christ, and thus, deny God.
You stand condemned.
That is a lie. I understand you say it because of your ignorance of the subject, but it's simply not true.
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GreenNnice
Guest
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Jesus was referred to as 'Mighty God,' which He is one with God, His father in Heaven.
Isaiah 9:6 is this said for understanding.
John 1
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
The Word = Jesus, but the Word also equals God. That is what this verse says and then verse 14 of John 1 elaborates: "And Word became flesh and dwelt among us." This 'Word' = Jesus .
This verse 14 continues...
"....among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (2, not 1, Jesus AND God
) God cannot be 2 can He? As great as God is, can He be TWO people, both the Saviour of the world and the One who was born through Mary to save the world ?
God is One person in three distinct places, and, in three distinct persons, as One, and that is EXACTLY how this first chapter of John reads and then again, in verse 14 of John 1.
))()()()
Also, Indisputable evidence that God is different than Jesus is from Jesus' lips as He cried out to His father (God) up on the cross, the very LAST things Jesus, the Son of God, said: 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Notice, too, both words Me & You are both capitallized? )'We are speaking of TWO seperate deity who are One in the power to be Mighty Counselor, Prince Of Peace, Mighty God, etc.
Jesus is Mighty God, just like God is Mighty God.
Z
zackabba
Guest
________
Jesus was referred to as 'Mighty God,' which He is one with God, His father in Heaven.
Isaiah 9:6 is this said for understanding.
John 1
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
The Word = Jesus, but the Word also equals God. That is what this verse says and then verse 14 of John 1 elaborates: "And Word became flesh and dwelt among us." This 'Word' = Jesus .
This verse 14 continues...
"....among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (2, not 1, Jesus AND God
God cannot be 2 can He? As great as God is, can He be TWO people, both the Saviour of the world and the One who was born through Mary to save the world ?
God is One person in three distinct places, and, in three distinct persons, as One, and that is EXACTLY how this first chapter of John reads and then again, in verse 14 of John 1.
))()()()
Also, Indisputable evidence that God is different than Jesus is from Jesus' lips as He cried out to His father (God) up on the cross, the very LAST things Jesus, the Son of God, said: 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Notice, too, both words Me & You are both capitallized? )'We are speaking of TWO seperate deity who are One in the power to be Mighty Counselor, Prince Of Peace, Mighty God, etc.
Jesus is Mighty God, just like God is Mighty God.
I think you mean TWO separate persons there. Two deities would equal two beings, not two persons. God is one being, and three persons.
Grace and Love
Z
zackabba
Guest
Z
zackabba
Guest
Jesus is my Lord and my God.
He is Thomas's Lord and God.
He is Paul's Lord and God.
He is James's Lord and God.
He is the Lord and God of all, to the glory of God the Father.
He is Thomas's Lord and God.
He is Paul's Lord and God.
He is James's Lord and God.
He is the Lord and God of all, to the glory of God the Father.
Z
zackabba
Guest
________
Jesus was referred to as 'Mighty God,' which He is one with God, His father in Heaven.
Isaiah 9:6 is this said for understanding.
John 1
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
The Word = Jesus, but the Word also equals God. That is what this verse says and then verse 14 of John 1 elaborates: "And Word became flesh and dwelt among us." This 'Word' = Jesus .
This verse 14 continues...
"....among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (2, not 1, Jesus AND God
God cannot be 2 can He? As great as God is, can He be TWO people, both the Saviour of the world and the One who was born through Mary to save the world ?
God is One person in three distinct places, and, in three distinct persons, as One, and that is EXACTLY how this first chapter of John reads and then again, in verse 14 of John 1.
))()()()
Also, Indisputable evidence that God is different than Jesus is from Jesus' lips as He cried out to His father (God) up on the cross, the very LAST things Jesus, the Son of God, said: 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Notice, too, both words Me & You are both capitallized? )'We are speaking of TWO seperate deity who are One in the power to be Mighty Counselor, Prince Of Peace, Mighty God, etc.
Jesus is Mighty God, just like God is Mighty God.
That was supposed to be for Shroom2... I was wondering how he reconciles them. I was also wondering how he reconciles praying to Jesus but I was going to wait until he answered the other one to ask. But since Zackabba already beat me to the punch...
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GreenNnice
Guest
\\
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Yes, God is THREE persons but, speaking of Jesus and God, they are two persons, yes, I put it wrong. Very tricky stuff, but in no way do I say things to upset or, worse, to cause someone to get upset . This is for discussion merely.Yes, I say it 'two deities,' but that is not correct, thanks for catching that, Zee
Grace and peace to you, and, Love, Christ bro
______________
Nalu , yes, Jesus saves, Christ bro.
Shroom, Nalu is saying that Jesus and God are one. Same as above, two persons , but one deity. The Deity
Jesus and God are two seperate persons, and, the Holy Spirit is the third, together, they are the Trinity. Just like the song: "God in three persons, blessed Trinity"
God bless you, all, for your participation in helping others understand our Lord and Saviour
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