IT IS NOT HERESY

[GraceAndTruth]

It is not ‘heresy’ to disagree over the symbolism and proper positions of the various views of Premillenists and Amillenists and Preterists or any other “isms”. We are discussing HISTORY, (PAST OR FUTURE) not THEOLOGY.

The dialogue of some people has become so contentious that it goes beyond the pale of Christian behavior. Tossing scripture around that is not meant to edify but to chastise and scold the one who dared disagree; this is blasphemy, a disgraceful misuse of scripture. There is only one entity that encourages this type of enmity and confusion among people of faith…..that old DRAGON.
(CALLING PEOPLE HERETICS)

I recently began some discourse in these forums after more than 18 months since the last time I was in chats. I had left before for two reasons.......I have an actual life.....and my behavior needed a re-do. I see some people have taken umbrage at some of my posts, so I will apologize to those whom I meant no insult.......and do not apologize to those who prefer to bait rather than debate. I gave short answers to a few posts simply because after hours of sharing my views I get the same questions. So I may move on soon, holidays are coming, presents to buy, cookies to bake........or I may not

I just did my ‘mea culpa’……..will you?

Disputing for the sake of arguing is empty silly talk. (We’ve all been guilty of that) Disputing bad doctrine is encouraged in the scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:1-22 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. ...

My questions are:
1.Would you converse with people face to face as you do in an anonymous forum?
2. What words would you use if you were speaking to your pastor? Same ones? Change a few? Would you be ok if everything you post in a forum was read to your congregation on Sunday morning? (I think I’d stay home that day)
3. When is it proper to dispute ?
4. Do we present our points in a way most beneficial to edify the church?

 

[Dino246]

I too am guilty at times of posting snarky, unpleasant comments, and though there is no excuse, there is always good reason for it. People really do get incensed when you disagree (or just don't agree wholeheartedly) with their favourite interpretations. The recent comment of one person really made it seem like a particular view of eschatological events was more important than the Person and work of Jesus Himself.

Nobody is saved, and nobody is damned, solely based on such views (or those regarding a lot of other issues frequently discussed on this forum). Maybe we all need to stop insulting and dismissing one another and start simply saying, "I disagree because...."

 

[Subhumanoidal]

I joined this site in 2011 and it was going on then, too. So not sure where "it's becoming" is accurate. Its been this way a long time.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I too am guilty at times of posting snarky, unpleasant comments, and though there is no excuse, there is always good reason for it. People really do get incensed when you disagree (or just don't agree wholeheartedly) with their favourite interpretations. The recent comment of one person really made it seem like a particular view of eschatological events was more important than the Person and work of Jesus Himself.

Nobody is saved, and nobody is damned, solely based on such views (or those regarding a lot of other issues frequently discussed on this forum). Maybe we all need to stop insulting and dismissing one another and start simply saying, "I disagree because...."

I can amen that.....too easy sometimes to dismiss young Christians who have fallen into bad teaching with those who ought to know better if they are born again. I know you are a strong influence in these forums and I am always thankful for you and others who stand on truth. Hard to not want to throttle the nay-sayers

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I joined this site in 2011 and it was going on then, too. So not sure where "it's becoming" is accurate. Its been this way a long time.

Even the apostles had apostates to deal with, and early church fathers battled it out with one another over doctrine. I was in AOL Christian chats for a long time.......so some things never change.

 

[Grandpa]

I would do my mea culpa but I have no idea what that is.

So I'll just have to settle on posting about things I know about...

Except for this one...

 

[Truth7t7]

It is not ‘heresy’ to disagree over the symbolism and proper positions of the various views of Premillenists and Amillenists and Preterists

(Full Preterism) in denial of a future bodily resurrection of the believer, and the second coming of Jesus Christ is heretical in my opinion, a false teaching.

 

[Blain]

It is not ‘heresy’ to disagree over the symbolism and proper positions of the various views of Premillenists and Amillenists and Preterists or any other “isms”. We are discussing HISTORY, (PAST OR FUTURE) not THEOLOGY.

The dialogue of some people has become so contentious that it goes beyond the pale of Christian behavior. Tossing scripture around that is not meant to edify but to chastise and scold the one who dared disagree; this is blasphemy, a disgraceful misuse of scripture. There is only one entity that encourages this type of enmity and confusion among people of faith…..that old DRAGON.
(CALLING PEOPLE HERETICS)

I recently began some discourse in these forums after more than 18 months since the last time I was in chats. I had left before for two reasons.......I have an actual life.....and my behavior needed a re-do. I see some people have taken umbrage at some of my posts, so I will apologize to those whom I meant no insult.......and do not apologize to those who prefer to bait rather than debate. I gave short answers to a few posts simply because after hours of sharing my views I get the same questions. So I may move on soon, holidays are coming, presents to buy, cookies to bake........or I may not

I just did my ‘mea culpa’……..will you?

Disputing for the sake of arguing is empty silly talk. (We’ve all been guilty of that) Disputing bad doctrine is encouraged in the scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:1-22 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. ...

My questions are:
1.Would you converse with people face to face as you do in an anonymous forum?
2. What words would you use if you were speaking to your pastor? Same ones? Change a few? Would you be ok if everything you post in a forum was read to your congregation on Sunday morning? (I think I’d stay home that day)
3. When is it proper to dispute ?
4. Do we present our points in a way most beneficial to edify the church?

I think Heresy is a word thrown around far to much, I mean you and I don't agree on certain things but I can't call it Heresy. I mean no one person is ever going to have everything right and just because people disagree is no reason to throw a word like that out but sadly being online gives people certain liberies and a certain sense of safety behind a screen which on one hand is a good thing unlike in real life people tend to show who they really are inside but on the other it is bad because people also can be just plain unacceptable in their behavior

If you end up moving on I wish you the best and also hope that our debates had no imprint of dislike on you besides you do challenge me and I have actually grown and learned a lot in our debates

 

[Benadam]

A divided Church means we are all somebody's heretic. 😁

 

[Tararose]

We have all fallen short in this area. Thanks for the honest and challenging post. I know have taken the bait already and I am new here comparatively. It does me good to see I am as culpable as anyone but I am not proud of it and hope we can all learn to behave lovingly and as glorifies God, online or otherwise.

May the Lord clear away the dross in our hearts as we search them and come boldly to the throne of grace with our desperate need for sanctification and pruning.

 

[Tararose]

(Full Preterism) in denial of a future bodily resurrection of the believer, and the second coming of Jesus Christ is heretical in my opinion, a false teaching.

Whatever it is or is not, the point is our attitudes and our lack of patient, gentle and gracious language and behaviour to those who (rightly or wrongly) disagree with us. Jesus didn’t say abuse and accuse those you consider heretics.

We can state our case politely and leave it there. We can then just pray for and/or avoid those we consider heretics. There is no call to battle, belittle, lecture, mock, accuse or make personal attacks No matter what a person believes. We do not have to engage with them at all if we feel they are heretical and it is causing us to sin in anger with our “tongue”.

2 Timothy 2

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It is right and good to hold to your convictions if you are fully convinced of them. It is understandable
that it frustrates you to hear people
Proclaim What you believe to be falsehood. You want to defend the truth. It’s honourable. But we do not fight flesh and blood, or battle
With our flesh, and we must not aim our battle at any individual but fight in prayer and love Our enemies.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

(Full Preterism) in denial of a future bodily resurrection of the believer, and the second coming of Jesus Christ is heretical in my opinion, a false teaching.

Then its a good thing I'm not Preterist. I'm looking forward to that new body.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I think Heresy is a word thrown around far to much, I mean you and I don't agree on certain things but I can't call it Heresy. I mean no one person is ever going to have everything right and just because people disagree is no reason to throw a word like that out but sadly being online gives people certain liberies and a certain sense of safety behind a screen which on one hand is a good thing unlike in real life people tend to show who they really are inside but on the other it is bad because people also can be just plain unacceptable in their behavior

If you end up moving on I wish you the best and also hope that our debates had no imprint of dislike on you besides you do challenge me and I have actually grown and learned a lot in our debates

Thanks and I do enjoy a challenge now and then......just not bullies as some come across as being.
You are right, we should always be remembering that even if we are incognito in a forum like this, God knows exactly who we are and what we are doing.......and saying.

it is better not to judge another persons journey, we never know what God's plan is for them.
Just stay teachable, after 40+ years of study I can always find a gem or two in scripture that I had missed before.

 

[Truth7t7]

Whatever it is or is not, the point is our attitudes and our lack of patient, gentle and gracious language and behaviour to those who (rightly or wrongly) disagree with us. Jesus didn’t say abuse and accuse those you consider heretics.

Perhaps Jesus Christ Should Have Went To Your (Sensitivity) Training Regarding Hypocrites And Heretics?

Matthew 23:13-38KJV
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Whatever it is or is not, the point is our attitudes and our lack of patient, gentle and gracious language and behaviour to those who (rightly or wrongly) disagree with us. Jesus didn’t say abuse and accuse those you consider heretics.

We can state our case politely and leave it there. We can then just pray for and/or avoid those we consider heretics. There is no call to battle, belittle, lecture, mock, accuse or make personal attacks No matter what a person believes. We do not have to engage with them at all if we feel they are heretical and it is causing us to sin in anger with our “tongue”.

2 Timothy 2

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It is right and good to hold to your convictions if you are fully convinced of them. It is understandable
that it frustrates you to hear people
Proclaim What you believe to be falsehood. You want to defend the truth. It’s honourable. But we do not fight flesh and blood, or battle
With our flesh, and we must not aim our battle at any individual but fight in prayer and love Our enemies.

A shepherd/elder in Christ, isnt going to watch the wolf/heretic prey on the lambs/babes in Christ Jesus, those who are knowledgeable are going to defend the flock, and pull the wool of that ole wolf/heretic, and expose the wolf/heretic from his attempt at devouring the flock/church

Just like little red riding hood said?

Grandma Is That You?

Matthew 7:15-16KJV
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

[Tararose]

Perhaps Jesus Christ Should Have Went To Your (Sensitivity) Training Regarding Hypocrites And Heretics?

Matthew 23:13-38KJV
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus’ wrath was pure and just and He had every right to speak harshly. We can declare the word of the Lord and should do so absolutely. We can give the scripture and it speaks for itself, and we can leave it there. There is no need to go beyond it with our own words of judgement.

We are fallen flesh and the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Jesus could take a whip to those in the temple and call out the hypocrites with from a pure and unhypocrytical Place. We cannot.

We can only say thus says the word of God, we have zero right to get up in anyone’s face with attitude as though we were saved by anything but sheer grace. This is why we are called to speak with all gentleness and humility, we are no different to those we accuse. You cannot erase the teachings of 2 timothy 2 to believers just because Christ Himself was not given such restrictions By God.

We are called to speak the truth in love - we can do that without adding our own self righteous Jibes and snide remarks, and We are called to distance ourselves from those who are heretics if they will not repent.

We are not called to stand in the seat of God however, as someone far above a sinner and who deserves OUR wrath. We are not called to do more than lovingly show the word of God, nor have we any right to retaliate personally and be offended by another fallen human being who is as lost and deceived as we once were before Christ opened our blind eyes.

If I were pure my judgement would be just, my wrath would produce righteousness and my own thoughts as valid as scripture and the words of God. But I am not and neither is any man or woman on planet earth. We are not Jesus and we are not called to act like we are the messiah in His pure and Holy Lordship. We are called to emulate His love and to forgive as we have been forgiven, He stands in a totally different position and rightly so when it comes to giving harsh and severe words. The prophets of old were permitted it, but we are not called to call down fire on our enemies.... we have a different role. Speaking truth and having a superior attitude should not go hand in hand for the true forgiven believer.

 

[Tararose]

A shepherd/elder in Christ, isnt going to watch the wolf/heretic prey on the lambs/babes in Christ Jesus, those who are knowledgeable are going to defend the flock, and pull the wool of that ole wolf/heretic, and expose the wolf/heretic from his attempt at devouring the flock/church

Just like little red riding hood said?

Grandma Is That You?

Matthew 7:15-16KJV
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Nothing here says we need to be disrespectful, arrogant and insulting. If a pastor or elder is in a position and there is an unrepentant person behaving or teaching in a heretical way, it can be called out from a heart of sorrow and grief and humility. Everything we do can be done in a way that is commanded in the New Testament. We do not have to alter our behaviour, shout and growl and pout and mock and behave like lost souls to speak the truth. We can do everything with quietness and confidence in the truth, a gentle spirit is not a weak one. The truth can fight for itself. God does not need our wrath.

 

[oldethennew]

Great Thread, Grace...

ECC. 3:1.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

opposing points of view can often show us both sides of the scriptures -
we certainly, as Tararose has so eloquently stated, must always speak the Truth in Love' -
and also,
as Truth7 has stated, 'righteous war' is better than a hypocritical peace...
our interpretation, if you don't mind Truth7...

what we as Christian's have to find is our God given strength of authority,
and how to us it, with discernment -
for some, we can minister with a very gentle word,
and on the opposite of the spectrum, we have to use the metaphorical 'base-ball-bat'...
Paul tells us that he has become all things to all men', he is not joining in any kind of sin,
but correcting at the proper 'level', whether it be PHD or KINDERGARDEN or whether a
'swaying-reed' or a complete 'knuckle-head'...

 

[Tararose]

Great Thread, Grace...

ECC. 3:1.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

opposing points of view can often show us both sides of the scriptures -
we certainly, as Tararose has so eloquently stated, must always speak the Truth in Love' -
and also,
as Truth7 has stated, 'righteous war' is better than a hypocritical peace...
our interpretation, if you don't mind Truth7...

what we as Christian's have to find is our God given strength of authority,
and how to us it, with discernment -
for some, we can minister with a very gentle word,
and on the opposite of the spectrum, we have to use the metaphorical 'base-ball-bat'...
Paul tells us that he has become all things to all men', he is not joining in any kind of sin,
but correcting at the proper 'level', whether it be PHD or KINDERGARDEN or whether a
'swaying-reed' or a complete 'knuckle-head'...

Thanks for taking all of the scriptures, and individual perspectives on them, into consideration in your reply. (I Still don’t see Paul being arrogant or snide Etc. Even in giving a stern apostleship Rebuke) but I do understand your point and am also thankful that you are looking to unify us in seeing the others points of view.

Blessed are the peacemakers

 

[oldethennew]

Thank you Tararose,

you are right, (arrogance-being snide-self-righteous-or any other behavior that agrees
with the flesh), is NOT acceptable...
our responses should always come from a pure motive, whether sweet or stern...

Paul is for sure one of our many heroes in the Bible, and we have never been in disagreement
with any of his teachings...
and we also agree, that after one has expressed their beliefs/opinions, and they choose to keep-on
arguing and butting heads, it becomes very unprofitable-counter productive-redundant...