There's no such thing as Israel being redeemed. People are redeemed individually, one by one. The sum total of those redeemed throughout the ages is Israel
Israel.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
There's no such thing as Israel being redeemed. People are redeemed individually, one by one. The sum total of those redeemed throughout the ages is Israel
Absolutely we do but this ....according to his promise .....has been the debate here.
We know the Church, the Body of Christ and Israel , not israel the physical nation, but Israel after the Spirit are the same, because Christ acted as High Priest for her, when He gave Himself a Sacrifice unto God. Writing to the Church Paul writes Eph 5:2, 25
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Now writing the Hebrews its written Heb 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
We know in Hebrews Jesus Christ sacrifice comes out of His Person and Office as High Priest, not a physical high priest as according to the law of levi, but a Spiritual High Priest according to Melchizadec and a endless life Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So the High Priest sacrifice unto God for the people are the same as in Eph 5:2
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
And as in Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
He's the same offering as in Eph 5:2 for the Church
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
As He is unto the Hebrew Believers Heb 10:10,14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
All three references use the same greek word for offering prosphora:
So Christ is the Spiritual High Priest for the Church, His Body, which is none other than Israel Spiritual, whom He gave Himself an Offering unto God , a sweetsmelling Savour ! 11
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Now writing the Hebrews its written Heb 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
We know in Hebrews Jesus Christ sacrifice comes out of His Person and Office as High Priest, not a physical high priest as according to the law of levi, but a Spiritual High Priest according to Melchizadec and a endless life Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So the High Priest sacrifice unto God for the people are the same as in Eph 5:2
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
And as in Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
He's the same offering as in Eph 5:2 for the Church
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
As He is unto the Hebrew Believers Heb 10:10,14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
All three references use the same greek word for offering prosphora:
- the act of offering, a bringing to
- that which is offered, a gift, a present. In the NT a sacrifice, whether bloody or not: offering for sin, expiatory offering
So Christ is the Spiritual High Priest for the Church, His Body, which is none other than Israel Spiritual, whom He gave Himself an Offering unto God , a sweetsmelling Savour ! 11
The Church is Israel[Not National Israel], the Spiritual Kingdom of God, and we know this by many promises made to Israel in the OT times find its ultimate fulfillment in the NT Gospel dispensation,for instance, when Paul wrote to a gentile city church assembly, Corinth, designating them Saints 1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
The word saints here is the greek word hagios:
set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.
They were a people set apart from the world, and when writing his second epistle to them, he applied OT promises made to Israel , he applied to them 2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 11
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
The word saints here is the greek word hagios:
set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.
They were a people set apart from the world, and when writing his second epistle to them, he applied OT promises made to Israel , he applied to them 2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 11
Throughout his entire ministry, Jesus didn't proclaim the good news of a restored national Israel; he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God. Therefore, we must conclude that when the prophets foretold a restored Israel, they were referring to the kingdom of God.
And after the delivering up John, Jesus came into the Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God, Mark 1:14
Yes, the regurgitation of talking points which have their source in people like John Hagee and his ilk.
When you use the term the church what are you implying? Christianity, or a select gathering.
Deuteronomy 30:3
New International Version
3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.
Jeremiah 30
New International Version
30 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”
4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 “This is what the Lord says:
“‘Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
Daniel 9:27
New International Version
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[
Matthew 24:15-25
New International Version
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Revelation 12
New International Version
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Revelation 20
New International Version
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 21
New International Version
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
New International Version
3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.
Jeremiah 30
New International Version
30 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”
4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 “This is what the Lord says:
“‘Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
Daniel 9:27
New International Version
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[
Matthew 24:15-25
New International Version
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Revelation 12
New International Version
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Revelation 20
New International Version
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 21
New International Version
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
J
John1335
Guest
Could you be more specific?
Which churches? And what do you mean by Anti-Israel?
And I know this one is gonna get me in trouble, but you are aware that the nation in the middle east that calls itself Israel is without a doubt the most Anti-Christ nation on Gods green earth, right?
At least Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet.
Well I can tell by your response I'd need to look no further. Can you give me examples of the Israel that you say is anti christ?
At least Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet what is your meaning of that? You seem to give a false godless religion a pass but stand against a nation that was prophesied to emerge once again by the word of truth.
You seem to give a pass to a worldly nation that denies Christ, but stand against what Jesus and the apostles wrote. Jesus said the kingdom ruled by God that he proclaimed fulfilled all OT prophecy and never said one thing about the restoration of a worldly nation ruled by ungodly men. And Peter said the holy nation of God already exists. There's a real disconnect in your thinking between OT prophecies and their fulfilled realities.
The Church is Israel because, Christ the Head of His Body the Church, is also likewise the Mediator of the New Covenant which only the blessings of are promised to Israel. Christ is the Head of the Church Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
This same Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant/Testament Heb 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The Body of People which benefit from their interest in the New Covenant Promises through the Mediator is Israel Heb 8:6-13
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
This same Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant/Testament Heb 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The Body of People which benefit from their interest in the New Covenant Promises through the Mediator is Israel Heb 8:6-13
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 11
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 11
J
John1335
Guest
My response was a simple question, which you failed to answer.
Everything about the modern state of Israel is Antichrist.
Would you prayerfully, and with an open heart and mind examine the evidence of my claims if presented to you?
Islam, with all its obvious faults, at least honors Jesus Christ as a true prophet. You should know this, it's a verifiable fact.
The majority of those claiming to be ethnic Jews on the other hand, are atheists. The majority of religious Jews believe that your Savior, if indeed He is your Savior, is burning in excrement in hell beside His mother Mary the whore.
You don't have to take my word for it, nor should you. You can easily verify these claims for yourself. But will you?
Now back to my question. Who are these anti Israel churches that you speak of?
https://stateofthenation.co/?p=191436
Just an fyi, it will not happen, any change of heart or willingness to see reality and God's truth.
I dare say the more people present truth, it just causes people to double down, I think it makes it worse.
Just want you to think on this because at some point we must head the words of Christ Jesus and shake the dust off our feet and leave them to their folly.
J
John1335
Guest
I do not think that they are beyond the reach of Gods Holy Spirit, at least that is my sincere prayer. I once believed all the same nonsense myself.
But you are correct, they do ignore the clear teachings of Christ, and His Apostles, and there may come a time to do as you suggest. Till then, I can only share the truth in love. Its not always easy, but not much about walking with Christ is, simple, but not easy.
Be blessed.
Much love, much peace.
I understand this for certain, as I was fed some of these ideas as a new Christian who lacked discernment.
But many have gone to their grave adamant holding onto this false eschatology, I just think believers can suppress the truth and God let's them have their way.
Each person does bring fresh approach and rebuttal so that is a good thing, I am sure you will know when there is no further discussion.
- Status