Israel.

[TruthDefender]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you never made mention of the great multitude and only the 144k because you were replying to my OP where I made mention of the great multitude, where I said that the 144k and the great multitude are the same group. You disagreed and said the 144k are literally virgin Jewish males, a totally different group than the great multitude who you believe are Christians. I believe that the 144k are the great multitude, "Christians"... the same one group undivided, who have been made as pure as Israelite virgin males made only possible by the blood of the Lamb. There are not two large distinct, separate groups standing before the throne, the elders and the 4 living creatures in Revelation: one group Christians and the other group virgin Jewish males. There is no such division for those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

I do appreciate your replies that helped to create this dialogue.

Are you from one of the 12 tribes? The verse I used even says the 144K are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Jews). You are totally ignoring this simple verse that explains it. I’m floored that you’re ignoring it!!?!

The great multitude that is not numbered, came out of the tribulation— Christians in white robes. And yes, we are in the last days.

 

[soulprobe]

Are you from one of the 12 tribes? The verse I used even says the 144K are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Jews). You are totally ignoring this simple verse that explains it. I’m floored that you’re ignoring it!!?!

The great multitude that is not numbered, came out of the tribulation— Christians in white robes. And yes, we are in the last days.

As I mentioned in my OP that you replied to: The great multitude was audibly numbered to John as 144k in the previous verses 5-8, then visually revealed to John in the following verses 9-17 appearing as a great multitude. You're floored because you take a particular verse literally and I don't. It's not something new, in fact quite common, for someone not to take a verse in the Bible literally. You've must have been floored many times. I believe the 144k (the great multitude), consisting of 12 tribes, exactly 12,000 from each tribe, not 10,259 from one tribe and 13,056 from another and so on... to be purely symbolic of the perfection that can only be achieved by the washing of the blood of the Lamb. Interestingly, both groups are introduced in the same chapter 7 because they are one and the same group. According to the content of your replies, I'm not "floored" by the fact that you are unable to comprehend this.

 

[Gideon300]

Yes, God is not done with Israel, but He is almost done with Hamas.
Not sure how much longer before He is done with the Dems.

My view, right or wrong, is that Israel is on the verge of a golden age. Finally, they have woken up to the fact that they became proud and complacent. They are doing now what they should have done years ago. The Dems......... I don't know a lot about US politics, but I know enough to know that the Democrats are weird. The Western world generally has gone of the rails. I'm glad that I don't have to date. One comedian said his first question was, "So how long have you been a woman?" We have the same group mental disorder in Australia. Doctors are supposed to treat people according to their self proclaimed gender. Good luck with that. I met someone whose school allows kids to identify as cats. And these kids are the future of the nation.

 

[TruthDefender]

As I mentioned in my OP that you replied to: The great multitude was audibly numbered to John as 144k in the previous verses 5-8, then visually revealed to John in the following verses 9-17 appearing as a great multitude. You're floored because you take a particular verse literally and I don't. It's not something new, in fact quite common, for someone not to take a verse in the Bible literally. You've must have been floored many times. I believe the 144k (the great multitude), consisting of 12 tribes, exactly 12,000 from each tribe, not 10,259 from one tribe and 13,056 from another and so on... to be purely symbolic of the perfection that can only be achieved by the washing of the blood of the Lamb. Interestingly, both groups are introduced in the same chapter 7 because they are one and the same group. According to the content of your replies, I'm not "floored" by the fact that you are unable to comprehend this.

Just because they’re mentioned in the same chapter doesn’t mean they’re one in the same. Besides, there is a break in language, “After these things I looked”, in vs 9…”behold, a great multitude”.

Even Vs 4 states the FACT that the 144K are Jews; but I’m repeating myself. NP, I know what God stated.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Even Vs 4 states the FACT that the 144K are Jews; but I’m repeating myself. NP, I know what God stated.

No, it states they are of the tribes of Israel. Does that mean physical Israel, or spiritual Israel? It can't be physical Israel because not all the tribes of physical Israel are listed in Revelation 7, particularly Ephraim which was the firstborn. Jacob prophesied that the seed of Ephraim would become a fullness of gentiles, and that is what the great multitude that no man can number is in that chapter. So there appears to be deeper spiritual truths hidden therein rather than just what appears on the surface .

And his father [Jacob] refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

​

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9​

 

[TruthDefender]

No, it states they are of the tribes of Israel. Does that mean physical Israel, or spiritual Israel? It can't be physical Israel because not all the tribes of physical Israel are listed in Revelation 7, particularly Ephraim which was the firstborn. Jacob prophesied that the seed of Ephraim would become a fullness of gentiles, and that is what the great multitude that no man can number is in that chapter. So there appears to be deeper spiritual truths hidden therein rather than just what appears on the surface .

And his father [Jacob] refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

​

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9​

Ok, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Thanks for your time.

 

[brightfame52]

So its through this grafting in the Branches of the Gentiles into Elect Israel, making them also Elect Israel, thats how or in what manner all Elect Israel shall be saved Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is the Church, the Body of Christ the Mediator of the New Covenant. 9

 

[TruthDefender]

So its through this grafting in the Branches of the Gentiles into Elect Israel, making them also Elect Israel, thats how or in what manner all Elect Israel shall be saved Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is the Church, the Body of Christ the Mediator of the New Covenant. 9

Yes, we’re the Remnant.

 

[soulprobe]

Just because they’re mentioned in the same chapter doesn’t mean they’re one in the same. Besides, there is a break in language, “After these things I looked”, in vs 9…”behold, a great multitude”.

Even Vs 4 states the FACT that the 144K are Jews; but I’m repeating myself. NP, I know what God stated.

I've seen that word "FACT", or "facts" thrown around many times in a variety of subjects of late... as if that word gives an argument or opinion more force and validity, especially when it's in all-caps.

There wasn't a break in language but there was a change in presentation of the same group: first the group was presented audibly and then the same group was presented visually. In the audio presentation they were described as Jews but in the following visual presentation they appeared as "all" nations, peoples, tribes and tongues. All meaning all, not all except Jews, or in your literal interpretation, all except Jewish male virgins.

My interpretation has people from all nations, tribes and tongues (including Jews) saved and standing before the Throne in Revelation as one group. Your interpretation is like a Christian Judaic hybrid where you have two separate groups of saved standing before the Throne in Revelation: one group are Christians from all nations (the great multitude) that are saved by grace and the other group are Jewish virgin males (the 144,000) that are saved according to their precise number, their ethnicity, gender. virginity and works. Your interpretation exhibits two plans of salvation: One for Christians from all nations and another for exactly 144,000 virgin Jewish males. I prefer my interpretation as it's more unifying and less divisive. And yes, you are repeating yourself and so am I, with a little more added detail.

 

[TruthDefender]

I've seen that word "FACT", or "facts" thrown around many times in a variety of subjects of late... as if that word gives an argument or opinion more force and validity, especially when it's in all-caps.

There wasn't a break in language but there was a change in presentation of the same group: first the group was presented audibly and then the same group was presented visually. In the audio presentation they were described as Jews but in the following visual presentation they appeared as "all" nations, peoples, tribes and tongues. All meaning all, not all except Jews, or in your literal interpretation, all except Jewish male virgins.

My interpretation has people from all nations, tribes and tongues (including Jews) saved and standing before the Throne in Revelation as one group. Your interpretation is like a Christian Judaic hybrid where you have two separate groups of saved standing before the Throne in Revelation: one group are Christians from all nations (the great multitude) that are saved by grace and the other group are Jewish virgin males (the 144,000) that are saved according to their precise number, their ethnicity, gender. virginity and works. Your interpretation exhibits two plans of salvation: One for Christians from all nations and another for exactly 144,000 virgin Jewish males. I prefer my interpretation as it's more unifying and less divisive. And yes, you are repeating yourself and so am I, with a little more added detail.

Agree to disagree.

 

[soulprobe]

Agree to disagree.

I've enjoyed our correspondence.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, we’re the Remnant.

Who is we?

 

[brightfame52]

The 144K in Rev. 7:4 are those in Rev. 14:4–
these are virgin men.

-“They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is the church the body of Christ spiritual Israel. The body will always follow the head wherever the head goes the body goes, that's the church they're one

 

[TruthDefender]

Who is we?

Those who follow Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Those who follow Christ.

That's the Church Israel the Body of Christ. That's the remnant from out of the world.

 

[TruthDefender]

That's the Church Israel the Body of Christ. That's the remnant from out of the world.

Nope

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

Yes

 

[TrutherMom]

We can agree the devil is at work, we just don't agree on who the devil is. At least I don't think we do. Too many pages here to sort out who believes what. I don't believe Israel is the devil or enemy.

There are some who doubt the role of Israel in God's plan and purpose. If that is so, perhaps you can explain this from the book of Revelation.
Revelation 7:3-8
“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Also Romans 11: 25 & 26.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

These things are obviously future. God is not done with Israel yet.

It is noteworthy that the tribe of Dan is not included in the 144,000. God rejected Dan because they allied themselves with the Philistines instead of conquering them as God had commanded. That compromise caused great trouble for Israel later on. We do well not to compromise with God's enemies.

The work to get saved under Law

Authorized (King James) Version

Romans 8:1-3

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

no way possible today, for anyone to enter in God's Kingdom without Son. Only if anyone er else can be perfect on their own can anyone, and no flesh can do hit but Son that did it once for everyone to get new life in his risen life given them to rest in.

So, we have left the done work of Son on the cross in his one time death for us all as reconciled. Forgiven for ever from Daddy's, PaPa's, Father's sight 2 Cor 5:17-20, Hebrews 10:10
No life in the death, dead is dead! Yet wait a sec, he is risen by Daddy, PaPa, Father isn't he?
Yes, that is where new life to be given and is given to people from Father, Daddy, PaPa, who have chosen to stand in belief to it is done for them to be made new in love and mercy too, to all, not a few chosen as religion does that and is in error to me at least,
Now if not given to one, anyone by God, then, that person has decided to be under Law to do to get, okay, God gives this fairness from God, the great white throne judgment day, these be the people that did not choose Jesus as the way, the truth and new life offered them. wanted, decided to do it on their own
see below, thank you, you decide I have and see the changes in me, not by me, just asked to see to agree with God, not myself or others either Phil 3

Authorized (King James) Version

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There are some who doubt the role of Israel in God's plan and purpose. If that is so, perhaps you can explain this from the book of Revelation.
Revelation 7:3-8
“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Also Romans 11: 25 & 26.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

These things are obviously future. God is not done with Israel yet.

It is noteworthy that the tribe of Dan is not included in the 144,000. God rejected Dan because they allied themselves with the Philistines instead of conquering them as God had commanded. That compromise caused great trouble for Israel later on. We do well not to compromise with God's enemies.

what if all the fighting in the ME, and the division of the land over there was completely un necessary. What if where we are told gods holy land, the yore Jerusalem is, isn’t where it really is. What if Satan has deceived the whole world and put the name Israel on a completely different location. I believe the Bible tells us that he has done exactly that. The true Israel is not where we are told it is. |

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

what if all the fighting in the ME, and the division of the land over there was completely un necessary. What if where we are told gods holy land, the yore Jerusalem is, isn’t where it really is. What if Satan has deceived the whole world and put the name Israel on a completely different location. I believe the Bible tells us that he has done exactly that. The true Israel is not where we are told it is. |

I had never heard it was in a different place. Do you have a link on that idea?

 

[TruthDefender]

what if all the fighting in the ME, and the division of the land over there was completely un necessary. What if where we are told gods holy land, the yore Jerusalem is, isn’t where it really is. What if Satan has deceived the whole world and put the name Israel on a completely different location. I believe the Bible tells us that he has done exactly that. The true Israel is not where we are told it is. |

-"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."
I John 2:22 NKJV