Israel.

[Gideon300]

Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

But let's continue...

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count.

I could write nearly a page for every sentence above but let me conclude this:

Revelation 7 requires wisdom to understand, like the rest of the book. This is not a count of 144,000 Jews. It is something else.

If not Jews, who?

 

[HeIsHere]

God works where people are looking.

This prophesy still hangs over them:

But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
I ask instead, did Israel not understand? First, Moses says:
“I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.”

The Jews are not currently jealous of believers: they are using them to advance their own political agendas.

I look for the people who currently reside in the region called "Palestine" to be those who move Israel to jealousy. I am not talking about Hamas or any other terrorist group... the people.

I do believe these verses were fulfilled in the first century as the gentiles they being not a particular nation, but I will need to formulate my response more fully to demonstrate why I believe it to be so.

Paul reiterates it in Romans 10:19.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes. I did not quote Genesis 49:17 because some might take it as a good thing. I see it as a warning of Dan's future betrayal of Israel and their deception of the people of Laish.

Yes I agree , sort of like what he said about Judas beforehand of his later betrayal of the lord.

notice the 12 tribes and 12 apostles are 24 specific names written in heaven ?

“and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like a consistant part of Gods plan to have twelve tribes of Israel in the ot and twelve apostles of Jesus in the nt.

Dan seems to be a figure for Judas in the nt both later replaced with others.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hebrews 7:11-12

Melchezidek is a good study brother …..

“If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect,

but the bringing in of a better hope did; ( new covenant the gospel ) by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:11-12, 18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬

“but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:24-25‬ ‭

“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum:

We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:1-2, 12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[homwardbound]

Melchezidek is a good study brother …..

“If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect,

but the bringing in of a better hope did; ( new covenant the gospel ) by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:11-12, 18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬

“but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:24-25‬ ‭

“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum:

We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:1-2, 12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the amazing Love and mercy of God, woe is me, I thank God for Son as risen where new life begins in the born again by God for them. I can't do it, God can and did it for us all through Son. seeing us each worthy of Love and mercy. To get given that and do that for all
There is a movie called "The Shack" that floors me. Seeing we all go through troubles here in this earth life, and some get stuck in their growth of God's love for us all.
The Story is about a man 'Mack" who got stuck in his tragedy that happened to him.
Amazing "Gold Nuggets" I get from the movie from my own turmoils in life here on earth that have created anger and sometimes think I have gotten over and see when think about it, I haven't yet. Now, still learning new from God in it all. Seeing, my Mother, My Dad, My Sister all alive in Heaven, having no impatience any more as had when alive here on earth first.
There is always the possibility they might not be in Heaven, I stand in trust to God to make the right righteous decision and see we all worthy of God's love, otherwise I see what Jesus did for us all, as not well, not good enough. When I see it as the best, God loves us all y'all period, and am thankful beyond understanding. I can't explain it as God can and does to each one of us in His Love blows me away everyday

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Several things to notice about the 144,000.

They stand on Mt Zion with the lamb of God

And I saw and beheld the lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him one hundred, forty-four thousands having his name and his father's name written upon their foreheads. Revelation 14:1​

​

Mt Zion is the throne of God, so we can reasonably conclude that the 144,000 are collectively referred to as the manchild who is caught up to the throne of God and who will shepherd all nations with an iron staff

And she brought forth a man child, who was to shepherd all nations with an iron staff: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Revelation 12:5​

​

Shepherding all nations with an iron staff is a reward given to those who in the spirit of the fear of God guard his works and overcome the world.

And to the one conquering and guarding my works until the end, I will give authority over the peoples. And he will shepherd them with an iron staff, as the clay vessels are shattered, as I have received from my father. Revelation 2:26-27​

​

Since there have been many overcomers throughout history, it seems reasonable to think that the 144,000 are a select group for a select time who are chosen (sealed), not based on genealogy or physical circumcision, but on obedience to the lamb of God. Geneaology and physical circumcision really mean nothing to God since Christ fulfilled everything pertaining to the promises to Abraham and the law and prophets. Physical circumcision means nothing and from stones God can make children of Abraham, because Abraham's children are of faith.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19​

​

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Luke 3:8​

​

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7​

​

So if the children of Abraham are of faith and being a Jew (judean) is an inward matter of the heart, it's not a stretch to think that the 144,000 are chosen by God, not based on genealogy or physical circumcision, but on spiritual obedience.

For he is not a Jew [Judean], which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew [Judean], which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29​

​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

Ephraim, the firstborn, is also not in that list. Joseph appears instead, which is unusual

 

[Aaron56]

Ephraim, the firstborn, is also not in that list. Joseph appears instead, which is unusual

He and Manasseh represent gentiles. The absence of Dan, who was known for skilled warfare, tells us that warfare is no longer needed.

 

[NeutralZone]

There are some who doubt the role of Israel in God's plan and purpose. If that is so, perhaps you can explain this from the book of Revelation.
Revelation 7:3-8
...
These things are obviously future. God is not done with Israel yet.

It appears, Gideon300, that you believe current-day Israel is still considered God's chosen people, despite the fact modern Israelies, like the first century Israelites, insist Jesus Christ was never the Messiah. In fact, non-Christian people claiming they are Jews are still waiting for the Messiah despite the fact the Messiah (Jesus Christ) already came and left.

NeutralZone

 

[Gideon300]

It appears, Gideon300, that you believe current-day Israel is still considered God's chosen people, despite the fact modern Israelies, like the first century Israelites, insist Jesus Christ was never the Messiah. In fact, non-Christian people claiming they are Jews are still waiting for the Messiah despite the fact the Messiah (Jesus Christ) already came and left.

NeutralZone

Israel is absolutely God's nation and people, according to the scriptures. Yes, most are still rebellious and still deny Jesus. However, there is revival happening in Israel as I write this. There are a multitude of Jews who do accept Jesus as Messiah. We may well be seeing what Paul foretold in Romans 11. So I reject your claim that modern Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah.

I follow Professor James Tour who is one the world's leading scientists. You do know that 22% Nobel prize winners are Jews? And Jews make up 0.2% of the world's population? Professor James Tour is a zealous evangelist, proclaiming Christ as diligently and effectively as anyone I know of. He is a Jew.

Check out his profile at Rice University. If he did not preach Christ and reject godless science theories, he may well have won a Noble prize himself. James Tour is mocked and ridiculed continually. Yet few if any dare debate him. All they have is insults and lies.

God blesses the nation of Israel and the Jews still. I'm English by birth. It is easy to trace the decline of the British empire from the time they turned against the Jews, which was at the start of the 20th century. Now the British are captive to Muslim interests. Christians are being persecuted while Muslim criminals go unpunished. This is public knowledge, much to the embarrassment of the establishment.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I'm English by birth. It is easy to trace the decline of the British empire from the time they turned against the Jews, which was at the start of the 20th century.

lol they were the first country in Europe to expel Jews in 1290 and afterwards became the largest empire in history.

 

[homwardbound]

Several things to notice about the 144,000.

They stand on Mt Zion with the lamb of God

And I saw and beheld the lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him one hundred, forty-four thousands having his name and his father's name written upon their foreheads. Revelation 14:1​

​

Mt Zion is the throne of God, so we can reasonably conclude that the 144,000 are collectively referred to as the manchild who is caught up to the throne of God and who will shepherd all nations with an iron staff

And she brought forth a man child, who was to shepherd all nations with an iron staff: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Revelation 12:5​

​

Shepherding all nations with an iron staff is a reward given to those who in the spirit of the fear of God guard his works and overcome the world.

And to the one conquering and guarding my works until the end, I will give authority over the peoples. And he will shepherd them with an iron staff, as the clay vessels are shattered, as I have received from my father. Revelation 2:26-27​

​

Since there have been many overcomers throughout history, it seems reasonable to think that the 144,000 are a select group for a select time who are chosen (sealed), not based on genealogy or physical circumcision, but on obedience to the lamb of God. Geneaology and physical circumcision really mean nothing to God since Christ fulfilled everything pertaining to the promises to Abraham and the law and prophets. Physical circumcision means nothing and from stones God can make children of Abraham, because Abraham's children are of faith.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19​

​

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Luke 3:8​

​

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7​

​

So if the children of Abraham are of faith and being a Jew (judean) is an inward matter of the heart, it's not a stretch to think that the 144,000 are chosen by God, not based on genealogy or physical circumcision, but on spiritual obedience.

For he is not a Jew [Judean], which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew [Judean], which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29​

​

Amen?!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanking Father and Son as Won for us the people to be new, born again by Father in risen Son Jesus for us each. and when Daddy, PaPas, Father, reveals this truth, to each child, one knows and rests Hebrews 4

 

[Komentaja]

God blesses the nation of Israel and the Jews still. I'm English by birth. It is easy to trace the decline of the British empire from the time they turned against the Jews, which was at the start of the 20th century. Now the British are captive to Muslim interests. Christians are being persecuted while Muslim criminals go unpunished. This is public knowledge, much to the embarrassment of the establishment.

Are there any other nations where this has happened? This is common in Europe right now.

 

[NeutralZone]

It appears, Gideon300, that you believe current-day Israel is still considered God's chosen people, despite the fact modern Israelies, like the first century Israelites, insist Jesus Christ was never the Messiah. In fact, non-Christian people claiming they are Jews are still waiting for the Messiah despite the fact the Messiah (Jesus Christ) already came and left.

NeutralZone

Israel is absolutely God's nation and people, according to the scriptures. Yes, most are still rebellious and still deny Jesus. However, there is revival happening in Israel as I write this. There are a multitude of Jews who do accept Jesus as Messiah. We may well be seeing what Paul foretold in Romans 11. So I reject your claim that modern Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah.

Not anymore, Gideon300. After they rejected Jesus as the Messiah and prodded the Roman government to execute him, that was the final nail in their coffin in terms of their being considered God's chosen people. Scripture confirms that.

 

[NeutralZone]

[QUOTE="Gideon300, post: 5524448, member: 306029"]Israel is absolutely God's nation and people, according to the scriptures. Yes, most are still rebellious and still deny Jesus. However, there is revival happening in Israel as I write this. There are a multitude of Jews who do accept Jesus as Messiah. We may well be seeing what Paul foretold in Romans 11. So I reject your claim that modern Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah.[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and reject to your heart's content. That doesn't change the reality that modern Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. The fact that they're not Christians speaks for itself.

 

[homwardbound]

Not anymore, Gideon300. After they rejected Jesus as the Messiah and prodded the Roman government to execute him, that was the final nail in their coffin in terms of their being considered God's chosen people. Scripture confirms that.

Read Romans 9, this grace given to the Gentiles without Law or tradition to do, is to make the first chosen jealous as I see what happened in Acts, when Peter went to the house of the gentiles, Cornelius's house. and entered that Gentile house illegally, and said so, yet by God was told to enter and trust Father to preach to them, when entered. Then God spoke to them through Peter's flesh. Peter did not speak truth, God did through Peter and they were saved without any rituals, water Baptism or anything. Peter the next Chapter of Acts, I think was 10 or 11, went to his fellow people, the other disciples and said to them, what he saw happen.
Amazing God loves us all y'all, proven to me in Jesus going willing to death, once for all to be first reconciled as forgiven, everyone as forgiven, (2 Cor 5:17-20) then risen where new life is given by Father to all that are sincere in belief to God and have no ulterior motives to get anything else but new life given them. These that get this, know that God, believe that God will supply every need needed. Thanks

 

[lrs68]

Israel being used by God for God even today has never nor ever required to be connected to the Messiah. Israel was God's Chosen before there ever was a Messiah. The Messiah so far has done more to benefit the Gentiles even if Israel had accepted Christ in His day. It's about the Prophecy of the Prophets being fulfilled. And when you take the words from Moshe, but more specifically Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joshua, Daniel, Micah, Obadiah, Zechariah, Zachariah, Malachi, Elijah, Elisha and many others and build a timeframe of events that have been fulfilled to what hasn't you see the big picture.

Most people get stuck on Matthew 24, Luke\Mark, Thessalonians, Revelation and add some Daniel and have attempted to create a pathway from point A until the Tribulation. But had they added the Prophets they would see the importance of Israel throughout all of mankind's existence.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Israel being used by God for God even today has never nor ever required to be connected to the Messiah. Israel was God's Chosen before there ever was a Messiah.

The messiah was the only reason for the existence of Israel. There had to be a framework of law in order to judge sins, and sins had to be judged for us to be set free from the devil. Once that was accomplished there was no need for an earthly kingdom. In fact, that is an abomination to God. Read in 1 Samuel how displeased God was with Israel when they asked for a king besides Christ.

 

[lrs68]

The messiah was the only reason for the existence of Israel. There had to be a framework of law in order to judge sins, and sins had to be judged for us to be set free from the devil. Once that was accomplished there was no need for an earthly kingdom. In fact, that is an abomination to God. Read in 1 Samuel how displeased God was with Israel when they asked for a king besides Christ.

Jerusalem, means "Peace," Melchizedek king of Peace or [Salem (JeruSALEM] a Christophany is the truest clue. But it doesn't stop Israel from fulfilling future prophecy.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Jerusalem, means "Peace," Melchizedek king of Peace or [Salem (JeruSALEM] a Christophany is the truest clue. But it doesn't stop Israel from fulfilling future prophecy.

All prophecy pertaining to Israel will be fulfilled. You just have the wrong location. If Jerusalem is above and Mt Zion is above, then Israel must also be above.

But ye are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24​