Israel.

[Gideon300]

There are some who doubt the role of Israel in God's plan and purpose. If that is so, perhaps you can explain this from the book of Revelation.
Revelation 7:3-8
“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Also Romans 11: 25 & 26.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

These things are obviously future. God is not done with Israel yet.

It is noteworthy that the tribe of Dan is not included in the 144,000. God rejected Dan because they allied themselves with the Philistines instead of conquering them as God had commanded. That compromise caused great trouble for Israel later on. We do well not to compromise with God's enemies.

 

[Omegatime]

The nation of Israel exists to fulfill all that is written of the last seven years and into the millennium.

Dan shall judge his people!

 

[Aaron56]

There are some who doubt the role of Israel in God's plan and purpose. If that is so, perhaps you can explain this from the book of Revelation.
Revelation 7:3-8
“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

But let's continue...

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count.

I could write nearly a page for every sentence above but let me conclude this:

Revelation 7 requires wisdom to understand, like the rest of the book. This is not a count of 144,000 Jews. It is something else.

 

[Aaron56]

I should go on record to say I absolutely believe God's plan with the Hebrew people is not complete.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I should go on record to say I absolutely believe God's plan with the Hebrew people is not complete.

indeed what’s changes is that gentiles have been included with them and they are no longer considered seperate and “the chosen ones “ the ruined tbat by breaking thier covenant but the new is made with the house of Israel to save them from the curse of breaking the old ….

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They broke their covenant and receives its curses . What people aren’t grasping is gentiles we’re included in the new covenant when Jesus sent those Israelites out to preach the gospel to both Jew and also everyone else ( gentiles )

Israel’s salvation is the gospel they can’t be saved by thier old covenant they have to repent and accept the messiah and his word to them and everyone else after

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel isn’t identified by flesh and blood anymore

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

In other words being born as a descendant of Abraham or Jacob doesn’t make a person an Israelite in the new covenant but this makes a person a child of Abraham and therefore child of God

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith in Christ Jesus identifies Gods people now not who thier ancestors are

the covenant changed and therefore the people and how they are identified has changed

 

[notmywillbuthine]

There are somewhere around 7.2 million Jews in Israel today. 144,000 would only represent .02% of the population there. If we go with global numbers, then there are somewhere around 15.8 million Jews on the planet today. 144,000 would only represent .0009% of the overall population. Either way, the numbers are staggeringly low.

 

[john832]

Before we can even have an intelligent discussion about Israel, we have to understand there are actually thirteen tribes...

Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Dan
Naphtali
Gad
Asher
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph - Who had two sons who were made tribes
Ephraim
Manasseh
Benjamin

How many of these tribes are Jews?

ONE - Judah

Here is an interesting scripture

2Ki 16:1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign.
2Ki 16:2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father.
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
2Ki 16:4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
2Ki 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

The context is that Israel is at war with the Jews.

After Solomon death his son Rehoboam became king and wanted to exact terrible taxation on the nation. Jereboam led a breakaway of the the northern ten tribes and established a capital at Samaria. Judah, Benjamin and Levi remained in the south with a capital at Jerusalem. From then on, the southern kingdom was Judah and the northern kingdom was Israel.

All Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews. Example: All Alaskans are Americans but not all Americans are Alaskans.

Israel went in to captivity to Assyria in 721-718BC. Judah went into captivity to Babylon in 607-587BC.

Also, the name Israel was not to be placed on Judah or the Jews...

Gen 48:3 Then Jacob said to Joseph: "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
Gen 48:4 and said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a multitude of people, and give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'
Gen 48:5 And now your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Gen 48:16 The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads; Let my name be named upon them, And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth."

So Israel (Jacob) said that from then on, the name 'Israel' was to be named on Ephraim and Manasseh. It was not placed on Judah.

 

[Gideon300]

Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

But let's continue...

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count.

I could write nearly a page for every sentence above but let me conclude this:

Revelation 7 requires wisdom to understand, like the rest of the book. This is not a count of 144,000 Jews. It is something else.

Obviously I disagree. Dan was cut from the tribes of Israel and replaced by Manasseh. This is akin to Judas being removed as an apostle because of his betrayal of Jesus.

 

[Aaron56]

Obviously I disagree. Dan was cut from the tribes of Israel and replaced by Manasseh. This is akin to Judas being removed as an apostle because of his betrayal of Jesus.

That's a yarn that was woven for people who WANT to see physical Israel in Revelation 7. Yet, nowhere in the scripture is this suggested.
Then, you would have to explain why Manasseh was chosen among all the offspring not just as a convenient stop-gap.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Obviously I disagree. Dan was cut from the tribes of Israel and replaced by Manasseh. This is akin to Judas being removed as an apostle because of his betrayal of Jesus.

interestingly this is said in tbe ot blessings of the twelve tribes regarding Dan

“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and this of Judas

“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:70-71‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[lrs68]

Shared DNA Markers are able to trace the bloodline back to Abraham, which we know is the great great great Grandson of Noah. Then from Noah we know that goes back to Seth and ultimately to Adam.


Shared Genetic Markers:
Studies have identified a set of genetic markers shared among Jewish populations, suggesting a common ancestry rooted in the Middle East.

Distinct Genetic Signatures:
While sharing common genetic markers, each Jewish population (e.g., Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Ethiopian) also exhibits distinct genetic features reflecting their unique histories and migrations.

Biblical Accounts:
The Bible, particularly Genesis 10 and 11, provides genealogies tracing the lineage of Abraham and other biblical figures back to Noah.

DNA and Biblical Data:
Some studies have attempted to align the biblical accounts of genealogy with DNA evidence, finding several similarities.

 

[HeIsHere]

I should go on record to say I absolutely believe God's plan with the Hebrew people is not complete.

What is left?

 

[Aaron56]

What is left?

God works where people are looking.

This prophesy still hangs over them:

But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
I ask instead, did Israel not understand? First, Moses says:
“I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.”

The Jews are not currently jealous of believers: they are using them to advance their own political agendas.

I look for the people who currently reside in the region called "Palestine" to be those who move Israel to jealousy. I am not talking about Hamas or any other terrorist group... the people.

 

[Gideon300]

That's a yarn that was woven for people who WANT to see physical Israel in Revelation 7. Yet, nowhere in the scripture is this suggested.
Then, you would have to explain why Manasseh was chosen among all the offspring not just as a convenient stop-gap.

Manasseh was adopted by Jacob and so became the head of one of Israel's tribes. You have to twist and distort scripture in order to reject Israel's place in God's purpose. It's not only Revelation that makes this clear.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

These events are future. Right now, Israel is more open to the gospel than it ever has been.

God promised to restore Israel as a nation. That promise was fulfilled in May 1948. Arab nations and others have been trying to destroy Israel for 77 years. 9 million people, including 2 million Arabs, have defeated around 150 million Arabs.

No, not all who live in Israel live righteous lives. Some even oppose Christians. Yet Israel is blessed by God beyond anything they have a right to expect. God withdrew His blessing for nearly 2,000 years. Now that blessing has been restored.

Do you have a logical explanation for the hatred of Israel that is so prevalent? Do you know why Israel was able to defeat 5 armies, who were better armed and even trained by the British army? The population of Israel was a bit less than 900,00 in 1948. Egypt was about 20 million. That's before you add the four other nations to invade Israel at that time.

 

[Gideon300]

interestingly this is said in tbe ot blessings of the twelve tribes regarding Dan

“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and this of Judas

“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:70-71‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes. I did not quote Genesis 49:17 because some might take it as a good thing. I see it as a warning of Dan's future betrayal of Israel and their deception of the people of Laish.

 

[homwardbound]

indeed what’s changes is that gentiles have been included with them and they are no longer considered seperate and “the chosen ones “ the ruined tbat by breaking thier covenant but the new is made with the house of Israel to save them from the curse of breaking the old ….

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They broke their covenant and receives its curses . What people aren’t grasping is gentiles we’re included in the new covenant when Jesus sent those Israelites out to preach the gospel to both Jew and also everyone else ( gentiles )

Israel’s salvation is the gospel they can’t be saved by thier old covenant they have to repent and accept the messiah and his word to them and everyone else after

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel isn’t identified by flesh and blood anymore

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

In other words being born as a descendant of Abraham or Jacob doesn’t make a person an Israelite in the new covenant but this makes a person a child of Abraham and therefore child of God

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith in Christ Jesus identifies Gods people now not who thier ancestors are

the covenant changed and therefore the people and how they are identified has changed

Hebrews 7:11-12

 

[homwardbound]

Manasseh was adopted by Jacob and so became the head of one of Israel's tribes. You have to twist and distort scripture in order to reject Israel's place in God's purpose. It's not only Revelation that makes this clear.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

These events are future. Right now, Israel is more open to the gospel than it ever has been.

God promised to restore Israel as a nation. That promise was fulfilled in May 1948. Arab nations and others have been trying to destroy Israel for 77 years. 9 million people, including 2 million Arabs, have defeated around 150 million Arabs.

No, not all who live in Israel live righteous lives. Some even oppose Christians. Yet Israel is blessed by God beyond anything they have a right to expect. God withdrew His blessing for nearly 2,000 years. Now that blessing has been restored.

Do you have a logical explanation for the hatred of Israel that is so prevalent? Do you know why Israel was able to defeat 5 armies, who were better armed and even trained by the British army? The population of Israel was a bit less than 900,00 in 1948. Egypt was about 20 million. That's before you add the four other nations to invade Israel at that time.

Nitro, comes in small packages, so does dynamite. God desires for us all to be saved by God IMO. As God chose to give free choice to us all to either believe God or not in risen Son for them or not
Wants to save our Souls, all flesh is now dead to God after Son's done work Romans 8:1-3

 

[PennEd]

Crazy to think God is done with Israel.

The names of the 12 tribes of Israel will be there, and distinct, from the names of the 12 Apostles on the Gates of the New Jerusalem.
Rev. 21
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Gideon300]

Nitro, comes in small packages, so does dynamite. God desires for us all to be saved by God IMO. As God chose to give free choice to us all to either believe God or not in risen Son for them or not
Wants to save our Souls, all flesh is now dead to God after Son's done work Romans 8:1-3

Sure, God is not willing that any should perish. Not all mankind is willing to be saved. I don't know what you mean by "all flesh is now dead to God after Son's done work". The whole human race is born dead in trespass and sin, and that before the Son's finished work.

 

[homwardbound]

Sure, God is not willing that any should perish. Not all mankind is willing to be saved. I don't know what you mean by "all flesh is now dead to God after Son's done work". The whole human race is born dead in trespass and sin, and that before the Son's finished work.

The work to get saved under Law

Authorized (King James) Version

Romans 8:1-3

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

no way possible today, for anyone to enter in God's Kingdom without Son. Only if anyone er else can be perfect on their own can anyone, and no flesh can do hit but Son that did it once for everyone to get new life in his risen life given them to rest in.

So, we have left the done work of Son on the cross in his one time death for us all as reconciled. Forgiven for ever from Daddy's, PaPa's, Father's sight 2 Cor 5:17-20, Hebrews 10:10
No life in the death, dead is dead! Yet wait a sec, he is risen by Daddy, PaPa, Father isn't he?
Yes, that is where new life to be given and is given to people from Father, Daddy, PaPa, who have chosen to stand in belief to it is done for them to be made new in love and mercy too, to all, not a few chosen as religion does that and is in error to me at least,
Now if not given to one, anyone by God, then, that person has decided to be under Law to do to get, okay, God gives this fairness from God, the great white throne judgment day, these be the people that did not choose Jesus as the way, the truth and new life offered them. wanted, decided to do it on their own
see below, thank you, you decide I have and see the changes in me, not by me, just asked to see to agree with God, not myself or others either Phil 3

Authorized (King James) Version

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.