Israel.

[Leastofall]

Because for Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, there needs to be jews present:


1A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

How can the jews flee if they aren't there?

If I may add on to this saints posting....notice that this is in the physical not spiritual. A physical Jerusalem.
Many or perhaps all the people before 1948 would not even dream of Israel becoming a state. Especially in one day.
Anti semitisim was even taught in churches with great zeal. Yet God's appointed time had come to pass.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Masoretic Text (MT) version of Zechariah 14:5 says to flee through a split Mt of Olives to Azal. That would be an eastward direction because the Mt of Olives is due east of Jerusalem.

Azal is due south of Jerusalem, so people fleeing east to get to it doesn't work. This is one of the many nails in the coffin of the MT version of Zechariah 14:5. The valley that lies between the Hill of Evil Counsel and Jabel Mukabeer (the Hill of Evil Council) was named Azal Valley in 1955 (I think I have the right date) by the Israel Gov't Names Committee. In 1990 or '92 (exact date escapes me) they named Jabel Mukabeer Mt Azal.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If I may add on to this saints posting....notice that this is in the physical not spiritual. A physical Jerusalem.
Many or perhaps all the people before 1948 would not even dream of Israel becoming a state. Especially in one day.
Anti semitisim was even taught in churches with great zeal. Yet God's appointed time had come to pass.

So dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and the coalition winning ww2 and then the heads of stert deciding to slaughter the people who Inhabited the land at the time and make it israel again by gins and force and send all the worldwide wandering Jews home to a new Israel …..this was how god said he would restore them ? Seems more like mans Will to bring something to pass by rhier own Will God said he was going to make a new earth that couldn’t be corrupted anymore and restore them then

 

[rogerg]

We have parables in the Bible, we have poetry, certain things are symbolic, certain things are figuratively said, others things are to be taken literally. However you discern the difference is not the point. The point is a literal land was promised to Abraham with literal borders. It's not spiritual, it's literal. That was the point. Simple.

How we discern the difference is exactly the point, because unless and until we realize its role in light of, and subject to, the gospel message, that which is being spoken about has not been understood. Since scripture was written by God regarding Christ, there aren't any throw-away, or independent verses in it - all in some way pertain to Him. And that was my point regarding the larger overall context being as being as important to an understanding as the individual verses are- we should seek to understand the gospel by them, and they by the gospel. That is, spiritual context matters, but is not always evident. Nevertheless, God told us to compare spiritual with spiritual for a reason and it was not optional - He did not express it as a "you might want to do this...". So, it is not a good idea by our volition to ignore God's directions.
The land promised to Abraham represented an earthly picture of the eternal land of Israel (Canaan) to be given to his spiritual seed, just as the nation of Israel was intended to be representative of eternal, spiritual nation of Israel - the Israel of God. The physical land given to his physical seed, was a picture of salvation by works, retained by the keeping of the stipulations of the law, which, of course, they failed at, and thereby they lost the land - just as the keeping of law for salvation fails in obtaining spiritual Israel. Only by comparing the spiritual with spiritual and gaining understanding of it through the Holy Spirit, will that become evident to us, even though on the surface, doing so may appear unnecessary.
Okay, at this point, I think we are talking past each other given as we are both have fundamentally different perceptions of scripture, so I don't see any benefit in continuing.
Thanks for the discussion.

[Psa 40:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

[Gen 17:8 KJV]
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

[Deu 8:20 KJV]
20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

[Jos 23:13 KJV]
13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

[Heb 11:10, 16 KJV]
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. ...
16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[Leastofall]

So dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and the coalition winning ww2 and then the heads of stert deciding to slaughter the people who Inhabited the land at the time and make it israel again by gins and force and send all the worldwide wandering Jews home to a new Israel …..this was how god said he would restore them ? Seems more like mans Will to bring something to pass by rhier own Will God said he was going to make a new earth that couldn’t be corrupted anymore and restore them then

Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

Yup

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

That's referring to the gentiles

 

[Slimsumo]

There will be no jeeting of any passage; exe or intra.

You should know that passage is one of much debate. Namely: is it pre-Christ, post-resurrection, or is it a mix of both. Take it as you wish.

No debate the context is clear, read verse 9 and onwards, never happened before stuff all the way through.

"9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. "

^None of these things ever happened.

The 1st 3 verses IMO are either talking about the Romans or Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who both sacked Jerusalem.

Jesus walked on the Mt of Olives many times during his life on earth, as mentioned in verse 4.

Verse 5 is from a corrupted text. The real reading is in the LXX:

And the valley of my mountains shall be blocked up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Azal, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him. Zechariah 14:5​

​

So there will be no fleeing. The reason there are two different versions is because a verb (nstm) that occurs 3 times in this verse means 2 very different things depending upon pronunciation (original Hebrew scrolls only had consonants). The Masoretes changed the text by inserting their tradition that mimics Moses splitting the Red Sea to flee through. All they had to do was slightly alter the pronunciation of nstm. As far as I know I am the world's expert on this matter, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

Yup

So nOt how he said tbrough the messiah and new covenant ? But tbrough World War Two and mankind’s ideal to give them a homeland by slaughtering the people who lives thoer because they weren’t Jews ?

i though he was going to raise them back up by the messiah and gospel ?

 

[Leastofall]

Are you aware of Right now in Israel a orthodox jew is lobbying to reenact the trial of Jesus to show that the trial was a complete sham.
He wants to do it publicly and invites all rabbis and those that have influence in judisim.
His hopes are to have this televised.
His purpose is to reinstate Jesus back into the fold of the Jewish people.
I think this is very significant in end times.
I have a video on this that I can post but only will if requested.
Now I emphasized orthodox jew not a Jesus believing jew. Which makes it more intresting.

 

[Haidabo]

The new Fold of Christ is coming to earth soon.

That is going to be a spectacular move of God.

 

[Haidabo]

Out with the old and in with the new.

 

[Haidabo]

And it is marvelous in our eyes.

 

[Haidabo]

Oh how the devils are angry.

They thought they had thwarted God

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The land promised to Abraham represented an earthly picture of the eternal land of Israel (Canaan) to be given to his spiritual seed, just as the nation of Israel was intended to be representative of eternal, spiritual nation of Israel - the Israel of God. The physical land given to his physical seed, was a picture of salvation by works, retained by the keeping of the stipulations of the law, which, of course, they failed at, and thereby they lost the land

And here is where the rubber meets the road. They lost use of the land, but not the deed. God is going to restore them to the land where they will not be uprooted again. Here is my point. It seems that people have no idea how covenants were made. I've asked several here and no one has given an answer yet. The Abraham Covenant was unconditional and everlasting.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If I may add on to this saints posting....notice that this is in the physical not spiritual. A physical Jerusalem.
Many or perhaps all the people before 1948 would not even dream of Israel becoming a state. Especially in one day.
Anti semitisim was even taught in churches with great zeal. Yet God's appointed time had come to pass.

Thank you, that's the point I've been making the last 10 posts.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Abraham Covenant was unconditional and everlasting.

Would you quote which covenant you're referring to? In the unconditional covenant of Genesis 15 the land was promised to Abraham's seed, who Paul said is Christ. Do you not believe Paul, or are you referring to another covenant?

 

[rogerg]

And here is where the rubber meets the road. They lost use of the land, but not the deed. God is going to restore them to the land where they will not be uprooted again. Here is my point. It seems that people have no idea how covenants were made. I've asked several here and no one has given an answer yet. The Abraham Covenant was unconditional and everlasting.

Correct, it was an unconditional, but not to the earthly Jews in to-to. No restoration for them to the land as a people was promised nor possible just by being the earthly Jews of earthly Israel. Only those Jews who happened to be of the elect, along with all of the other elect individuals - those non-Jews taken out of all peoples, kindreds, tongues and nations, all through Christ, will be/are the inhabitants the new, spiritual Israel of God. They alone fully comprise the spiritual children of Abraham, and as such, it was they alone unto whom the everlasting covenant promise was made by God. God's promise to them was unconditional and not based upon any actions on their part to maintain it - it was all achieved by God through Christ, nothing by them
The covenant made to the earthly Jews, on the other hand as an earthly people, was not unconditional but predicated upon their keeping of the law, which they did not keep and therefore they were driven from the land.

[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Gideon300]

ChatGPT is great and regurgitating what it has been fed.
Primary sources are the right source.

What does Netanyahu have to say about it?

 

[Gideon300]

Would you quote which covenant you're referring to? In the unconditional covenant of Genesis 15 the land was promised to Abraham's seed, who Paul said is Christ. Do you not believe Paul, or are you referring to another covenant?

So the land of Israel belongs to Christ. Obviously He chose to restore the nation of Israel to the land. And He will return to rule the nations from Jerusalem.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So the land of Israel belongs to Christ. Obviously He chose to restore the nation of Israel to the land. And He will return to rule the nations from Jerusalem.

The bolded is your opinion, and it doesn't address the question at hand, which is what unconditional covenant with Abraham gave Israel a deed to the land?

God made only 2 covenants with Abraham: an unconditional covenant in Genesis 15 in which the land was promised to Christ and a conditional covenant in Genesis 17 in which the land was promised to Abraham and his descendants based on the condition of circumcision. Abraham's descendants were later brought under the yoke of the Mosaic covenant and its law and possession of the land became conditioned upon obedience to the law; simply being circumcised was no longer enough to possess the land.