Israel... or not?

[james57]

I am starting to feel the same way. I love studying eschatology and discussing it.

But some things are just so far out there. and even when you try to show them, they can't see it. It is time to say enough is enough, for your own sanity.

Lol that makes three of us, I have been thinking the same thing myself

 

[wolfwint]

you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.

Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to

Dear Valliant, i think because of our different hermeneutik and exegetic tools we will not come to one sigth in this matter. Jesus plan with us christians (jews ore gentile in christ till our meeting with the Lord in the air 2.Thess. will take place, the rapture) is different to his folk the descendes of Jacob, which are then still on earth, while we christians are with the Lord.
I know you will not agree, but this is what i believe. So I cant choose the tribe which I want I am different. I am His child and adoptet in His family. Thank you Lord for that!

 

[vic1980]

you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.

Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to

Which of the twelve tribes of Israel do you belong to, clarify to those in this Discussion Forum,where in scripture you can choose which tribe you belong to.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Maintaining accurate genealogies is not your first thought when being driven from one place to another by persecution.

Nor is forgetting your lineage.

The q

uestion is...what do you base that on?

Historical fact.

What historical fact can you produce that nullifies the testimony of Scripture?

Give me a source.

So I addressed your question, now answer mine: what do you base your view on?

On the fact that even in Jesus day the priests, for whom it was most important, were only expected to trace their genealogy back for five generations.

Still shows that the meticulous nature of Jews which I would think five generations should pretty much clarify the issue.

Demands a pure bloodline.

Most others could not even do that. In Israel today a large number of honest Israelis will admit that they do not really known their genealogical line.

Relevance?

They do not need to know which tribe they are from to be Jews. Did Joseph or Mary? lol

In regards to Samaritans, we know who they descend from, the intermingling of Jews with the people that were brought into Israel after they were fell under their enemies.

This is simply untrue.

Actually it is not:


2 Kings 17:24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.


Gentiles were imported.

When they come to assist in the rebuilding, they are refused:


Ezra 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.


The Lord distinguishes between Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Now I ask you, is the Lord confused that Samaritans are not Jews of the House of Israel (the very name of the Northern Kingdom) nor Gentiles?

You have no proof for your statement whatsoever (it is an ancient view since rejected).

Rejected by Who?

Wikipedia? lol

If they are not of Jewish origin, then they are Gentiles. IF they are not of Gentile origin, they are Jews.

They are neither, they are Samaritans.

The 'Samaritans' of Jesus' day were strictly monotheistic, were located around Shechem, had maintained their own version of the Pentateuch, and had their own Temple and priesthood based on mount Gerizim (not on Samaria).

Well now how in the word would you know that...seeing that you are trying to prove nobody knows who they are? lol


Continued...

 

[vic1980]

Physical descendants that Believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:27-29 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

God always has saved A remnant of Israel

There is spoken upon in the final book of the bible, twelve tribes 144,000 of the son of Israel. written upon in Revelation, the only ones that know the new song that no one could learn.

Revelation 7:4

The 144,000

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. The new song, no one could learn , except the one hundred and forty-four thousand Rev 14 The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion 1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless. Shalom

 

[P1LGR1M]

It is likely that they were a Jewish sect. It is very unlikely that they were the products of the polytheistic religion found in Samaria as described by the prophets.

That is not the history Scripture presents:


2 Kings 17:13-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Yet the Lord testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the Lord their God.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the Lord had charged them, that they should not do like them.

It was typical in those days to export captives and import their own people, and this is why the Samaritans were despised, because they were not supposed to go in unto the Gentiles.

But the people you describe WERE Gentiles. The Samaritans abjured them

Did they?

Not sure how you could impose some kind of faithfulness to the House of Israel. From their very beginnings they were devil worshipping pagans:


2 Chronicles 11:13-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the Lord:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.


And we see in this that out of the Northern Kingdom, from all Tribes, those that set their hearts to seek God removed themselves from The Northern Kingdom and went to Jerusalem, where true worship was, for a time, anyway, still being practiced.

And Christ's commentary on Samaria and Samaritans?


John 4:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

So present the basis for your belief and post a legitimate resource that supports your enthusiastic belief that there are no Jews in Israel.

I don't think anyone will seriously say that there are NO Jews in Israel.

Some do:

Israelis are not Israel either. They are a conglomeration of persecuted peoples who found refuge there.

What we will say is that most cannot demonstrate that they are legitimate Jews, and many quite blatantly are not.

I don't see that reflected in the statement...

Israelis are not Israel either. They are a conglomeration of persecuted peoples who found refuge there.

Remember that the Jews themselves were a mixed race people.

No, I don't remember, perhaps you could supply the Scripture that suggests this. I seem to remember the mixed multitude being mentioned separately and not being considered as Tribes of Israel.

We could mention the Half-Tribes, which is a point I would cede, but even they are not described as being of the Twelve Tribes, though we do see one of them here...

Revelation 7:4-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


Dan seems to be left out in the Tribulation.

They had incorporated Edomites from Southern Judah and Gentile inhabitants of Galilee BY FORCED CIRCUMCISION.

Not sure why that is relevant to the point being examined, but, okay.

And all Jews had intermingled for 1800 years with Gentiles and with strangers who claimed to be Jews. Their line was all mixed up

That is not going to be supported by Scripture, sorry.

According to this mythology we would have to question even the validity of the lineage of Christ, whether He was of the Tribe of Judah or not.

While there may be many Jews uncertain of their heritage, or which Tribe they descend, God is not confused and Revelation seems to point out that one day twelve thousand from the Twelve Tribes referred to will be sealed.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Forgive me, I cant copy paste scripture as I am not using a computer. But would you not believe physical Jews are being referred to in zech12? Only in the last couple of verses specific Jewish clans are mentioned

I can relate, had to use a tablet when out of town recently. Like pulling teeth, lol. I did learn how to copy and paste on it, though, which helped out, but still, much more limited than a computer.

But in regards to the question, yes, I do see Jews in view. Keep in mind that the Tribulation is the Seventieth Week, and this pertains primarily to judgment on Israel for their sin. While the entire world will undergo this judgment, Israel is a focus. Through this judgment Israel is refined, and the unbelieving among her will be destroyed, just as all unbelieving Gentiles are.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.

Actually the distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles is made often. They are One in Christ, spiritually, but the Jews are not compelled to shed their heritage and Gentiles are not compelled to take upon themselves the heritage of the Jews.

As an example, we read...


Galatians 2:8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles


Both retain their heritage.

Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to

If that is the case I want to be of the Tribe Nathanael was of.




God bless.

 

[dcontroversal]

We are the seed and stock of Abraham by faith.....

 

[prove-all]

The 'Samaritans' of Jesus' day were strictly monotheistic, were located around Shechem, had maintained their own version of the Pentateuch, and had their own Temple and priesthood based on mount Gerizim (not on Samaria). It is likely that they were a Jewish sect. It is very unlikely that they were the products of the polytheistic religion found in Samaria as described by the prophets.

“In Samaria, north of Jerusalem, lived a Gentile people whom
the Jews of Christ’s day spurned, calling them ‘dogs.’

They had been moved there from areas of the Babylonian Empire about 700 b.c.
by various kings, including Shalmaneser of Assyria (2Kings 17:18, 21-24, etc.).”

The people of Samaria then were not Israelites; they were largely Babylonian by birth.
After Israel was taken into captivity, people from five Babylonian tribes were moved into Samaria.
They brought their Babylonian and Assyrian gods and their pagan practices with them.


Soon after possessing the land, these Babylonians were attacked by lions (verse 25).
The new colonists superstitiously believed that the lion attacks were coming upon them
because they had failed to honor the god of the new land (verse 26).

They failed to recognize that God had sent Israel into captivity because of their idol
worship. and this land was still very importent to God, even when no Israels lived there.

The newly settled Samaritans asked the Assyrian king to send back a priest from Israel
to teach them how to worship the God of the land. The king complied (verse 27),
but what they received was a priest who taught them the pagan practices of northern Israel.

Thus, they were taught a religion of Old Testament teaching mixed with paganism.

The Samaritans began to worship Israel’s God using the false teachings of
the evil King Jeroboam. Remember, Jeroboam was an outright rebel.

He formed his own religion. He forced true priests of God to flee to Jerusalem
and Judea (2Chronicles 11:14). He established calf worship at Dan and Bethel
(1Kings 12:28-30).

He changed the fall holy days from the seventh to the eighth month.
He made priests of the lowest of the people, those who were not of the tribe of Levi
(verse 31).

So the Samaritans were deeply deceived by an Israelite priest who taught them
pagan practices while showing them God’s name.

They began to refer to themselves as the people of God, but essentially they
remained Babylonian idolaters (2 Kings 17:41). “They brought with them into
the land of Samaria their own Babylonian mystery religion.

In the eighth chapter of Acts you’ll read of their religious leader in
the time of Christ, Simon Magus the Sorcerer” ,

Exposing Simon Magus, that Simon “used sorcery, and bewitched the
people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying,
This man is the great power of God” .

These verses reflect more than just an ordinary encounter with a man
converting to Christianity.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Kind of hard to be dogmatic about that:


John 20:30

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:





God bless.

I understand that, but nothing is in the Bible by accident if you serve a perfect God . I am not trying to make something spiritual or even read much into it but it is a fact that only 153 instances were recorded of Jesus ministering one on one. Is it a coincidence? You decide

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

It's a valid question: which Tribe are you a member of?


God bless.

If I have to take a guess I would say Ephraim because he became a multitude of nations but I don't know. I know that the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates and Israel do have 12 tribes

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This might be a good place to start:


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Keep in mind that Israel was an exclusive people, and there is no reason to think that ended after the First Century.

My own origins have been traced back millennia, and this by a people not so fervent about heritage as I perceive Scripture attributing to Israel.

Paul was proud to be of the Tribe of Benjamin, though I myself might not want to volunteer that information if I were, lol. One whose lineage traced back to the tribe of David, though, might find that a distinct honor and something worth mentioning to the kids, lol.


God bless.

Sorry but these folks dont stand a chance.

The records were kept in the temple.

Oooops, completely destroyed 70 AD.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

In regards to Samaritans, we know who they descend from, the intermingling of Jews with the people that were brought into Israel after they were fell under their enemies. It was typical in those days to export captives and import their own people, and this is why the Samaritans were despised, because they were not supposed to go in unto the Gentiles.

And I agree, repeating lies often enough will gather a following, and we can usually see an agenda behind those mythologies. As I said, the Ten Lost Tribes Mythology" is one rooted in racism, and it is not surprising why racists would (1) hate Jews to begin with and (2) create mythology to garner supporters of their own agendas.



God bless.

Total assumption.

These things have been layed out in detail that you cannot refute, hence yer assumed declaration of hate mongering.

Tamara had TWO sons.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Relevance?

They do not need to know which tribe they are from to be Jews. Did Joseph or Mary? lol

Of course they did, the temple was still standing.

Mary's cousin Elisabeth's husband was a Levite.

Not of Judah.

They just happened to live in Judea.

 

[crossnote]

I understand that, but nothing is in the Bible by accident if you serve a perfect God . I am not trying to make something spiritual or even read much into it but it is a fact that only 153 instances were recorded of Jesus ministering one on one. Is it a coincidence? You decide

Is this some kind of coincidence/connection?

Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
(Joh 21:11)

 

[redeemed2014]

Is this some kind of coincidence/connection?

Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
(Joh 21:11)

It is just one of many instances proving that man could not have put a book together that is that perfect. Some of the many I have found:

-In Genesis chapter 1 God said is wrote 10 times (10 being the number of Completion; Divine Order; Responsibility on Earth)

-In the Old Testament Noah is mentioned 50 times. In the New Testament Noe (Noah) is mentioned 5 times. The 5th time Noah is mentioned in the Bible we are told the Lord found grace in Noah. The flood lasted 5 months (150 days, Genesis 7:24).
The 1st time Noah is mentioned is in Genesis chapter 5. (5 is the number of Grace) and to tie all of that together Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

-One more about Noah. Noah was 950 years old when he died (divisible by 5 also(Grace)). 9 means End; Conclusion of a matter 5 means Grace multiplied by 10 Completion; Divine Order; Responsibility on Earth. Noah's death was an end to his responsibility on earth to be fruitful and replenish it (Genesis 9:1). And all of that was done because of the grace of God which Noah found due to his faith (Hebrews 11:7) (Genesis 6:8).

Amazing is it not, NO man could have done this and definitely not multiple men over thousands of years with out the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

 

[tanach]

Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)

That might explain that some on this site appear to be Barking!

 

[valiant]

Dear Valliant, i think because of our different hermeneutik and exegetic tools we will not come to one sigth in this matter.

I am sure you are right. But my hope is that my representation of the truth will help OTHERS not to go astray.

It is not our exegetical tools or hermeneutics that are the problem. It is how we see prophecy. I believe that the prophets prophesied themes and how the future would unfold, you think each prophecy is speaking of only one event. Furthermore I allow the New Testament to guide my interpretation, something you fail to do.




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