Israel... or not?

[james57]

Would the following be a deflection from the subject title of the thread?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ Zech 8:20-23

 

[crossnote]

I have the weight of scriptural witness behind me. The number 12 has always been associated with Israel, never some other entity. If anything, the number 7 would be associated with the 'church'.

And here I thought the Apostles were associated with the Church, and 12 was associated with governance.
Geesh how silly can I be?
(why do I keep revisiting these eschatology threads?)

 

[P1LGR1M]

Would the following be a deflection from the subject title of the thread?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ Zech 8:20-23

Could you supply the context of how you see it as relevant?

I would say it is relevant, and that it establishes a period in which other nations will go to Jerusalem to seek God.

This has not been fulfilled yet. Is that similar to how you would see it as on topic?


God bless.

 

[prove-all]

One whose lineage traced back to the tribe of David, though, might find that a distinct honor and something worth mentioning to the kids, lol.


God bless.

It's claimed that the Queen of england can trace her roots back to King David,
and they claim to have Jacobs piller stone under there corination chair.

 

[james57]

Could you supply the context of how you see it as relevant?

I would say it is relevant, and that it establishes a period in which other nations will go to Jerusalem to seek God.

This has not been fulfilled yet. Is that similar to how you would see it as on topic?


God bless.

I must admit to not having read the whole of the initial thread that's why I asked the question. I agree with your last two sentances, all I would add is, it speaks of a time when nations are convinced God is with the Jews in a special, or major way. If that is considered off topic, I apologise

 

[oldthennew]

the Common Wealth of Isreal is made up of both Jew and Gentile....

why anyone would or could be offended by this is a mystery....

all the promises and Covenant pertain to Isreal'!!!...

PLEASE, SQUEEZE ME IN!!! no matter my 'blood-line'...

 

[james57]

the Common Wealth of Isreal is made up of both Jew and Gentile....

...

A genuine question. Do you believe this will be so when the following verse of prophecy comes to fruition?

Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite[SUP][c][/SUP] in the house of the Lord Almighty. Zech 14:21

 

[oldthennew]

ABSOLUTELY,

there will be NO gentile eligible for inheritance...

either you have to be of the blood of Isreal or you have to be of Isreal through ADOPTION,
for again, All the Promises and Covenants pertain TO ISREAL....

 

[james57]

ABSOLUTELY,

there will be NO gentile eligible for inheritance...

either you have to be of the blood of Isreal or you have to be of Isreal through ADOPTION,
for again, All the Promises and Covenants pertain TO ISREAL....

Thank you for responding with your thoughts

 

[valiant]

That is the mythology. Go speak to people who are actually Jews.

LOL they invent their own genealogies.

What you are suggesting is that without the records of the First Century, all Jews simply wandered off into oblivion and forgot who they were.

Most of the Jews in 1st century did not know where they came from. In many cases they had not bothered to maintain records (they came from a huge variety of background) and they also wanted to hide black sheep in their past. Furthermore in many cases their backgrounds were shady genealogically speaking. Any information was largely lost. All kinds of claims were made. Only the priests and a few prestigious families maintained any kind of genealogy. And even these were by hearsay. Herod had destroyed large numbers of genealogical records in order to hide his own illegitimacy, and the Temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. From that time on anyone who wished to exalt himself could produce genealogies initially based on Scriptural ones and then add names of their own. Maintaining accurate genealogies is not your first thought when being driven from one place to another by persecution.

The question is...what do you base that on?

Historical fact.

So I addressed your question, now answer mine: what do you base your view on?

On the fact that even in Jesus day the priests, for whom it was most important, were only expected to trace their genealogy back for five generations. Most others could not even do that. In Israel today a large number of honest Israelis will admit that they do not really known their genealogical line.

In regards to Samaritans, we know who they descend from, the intermingling of Jews with the people that were brought into Israel after they were fell under their enemies.

This is simply untrue. You have no proof for your statement whatsoever (it is an ancient view since rejected). The 'Samaritans' of Jesus' day were strictly monotheistic, were located around Shechem, had maintained their own version of the Pentateuch, and had their own Temple and priesthood based on mount Gerizim (not on Samaria). It is likely that they were a Jewish sect. It is very unlikely that they were the products of the polytheistic religion found in Samaria as described by the prophets.

It was typical in those days to export captives and import their own people, and this is why the Samaritans were despised, because they were not supposed to go in unto the Gentiles.

But the people you describe WERE Gentiles. The Samaritans abjured them

So present the basis for your belief and post a legitimate resource that supports your enthusiastic belief that there are no Jews in Israel.

I don't think anyone will seriously say that there are NO Jews in Israel. What we will say is that most cannot demonstrate that they are legitimate Jews, and many quite blatantly are not.

Remember that the Jews themselves were a mixed race people. They had incorporated Edomites from Southern Judah and Gentile inhabitants of Galilee BY FORCED CIRCUMCISION. And all Jews had intermingled for 1800 years with Gentiles and with strangers who claimed to be Jews. Their line was all mixed up

 

[valiant]

ABSOLUTELY,

there will be NO gentile eligible for inheritance...

either you have to be of the blood of Isreal or you have to be of Isreal through ADOPTION,
for again, All the Promises and Covenants pertain TO ISREAL....

But all Christians ARE Israelites, either by birth or adoption.

 

[valiant]

Would the following be a deflection from the subject title of the thread?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ Zech 8:20-23

Fulfilled after Pentecost

 

[P1LGR1M]

It's claimed that the Queen of england can trace her roots back to King David,
and they claim to have Jacobs piller stone under there corination chair.

I view that as propaganda of the Ten Tribes Mythology.

It might be true, that but that doesn't change the fact that there is still a living breathing Nation of Israel still surviving in the world from which God will seal 12,000 of each Tribe mentioned in Revelation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I must admit to not having read the whole of the initial thread that's why I asked the question. I agree with your last two sentances, all I would add is, it speaks of a time when nations are convinced God is with the Jews in a special, or major way. If that is considered off topic, I apologise

Don't apologize, my friend, not only is it on topic I would agree with that assessment.

I view the Millennial Kingdom as being similar to this Age, in that all men are still going to have to be born again. I view Paul's statement "And thus shall all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11)" to point to the fact that no unbeliever will enter into the Kingdom of God, but will be destroyed as taught in Matthew 25 as well as other teachings.

The OP does deal with the issue of the Two Israels we see taught in Scripture, one which is spiritual and one that is physical. Many Old Testament Prophecies deal with a physical people, which is the People we read of in the Old Testament. Usually the views which deny Israel's continued existence or see Israel as having been replaced by the Church are views which have to nullify a number of God's promises to those people.

So jump in, lol, no reason anyone can't participate.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

A genuine question. Do you believe this will be so when the following verse of prophecy comes to fruition?

Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite[SUP][c][/SUP] in the house of the Lord Almighty. Zech 14:21

For what it's worth, I view this as a euphemism that describes unbelievers. Rather than a reference to the specific people of Canaan.

Just as Amorite does here:


Genesis 15:16

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


Or the Sodomite is here:


2 Kings 23:7

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove.



God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M That is the mythology. Go speak to people who are actually Jews.

LOL they invent their own genealogies.

According to the mythology.

What you are suggesting is that without the records of the First Century, all Jews simply wandered off into oblivion and forgot who they were.

Most of the Jews in 1st century did not know where they came from.

How does that equate to no Jews knew who they were and that no Jews know who they are today? TO the point you imply the Jews of the Nation Israel...are imposters?

Paul was a first century Jew who knew which Tribe He was of.

Furthermore, we see the Tribes mentioned here:


James 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


...and here...


Acts 26:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?


You err to embrace the mythology that the Twelve Tribes have gone out of existence or that they will not play a role in future events.

In many cases they had not bothered to maintain records (they came from a huge variety of background) and they also wanted to hide black sheep in their past.

The basis of this statement?

You read this, or heard this somewhere?

Where? Where is the link that denies what Scripture itself states?

Furthermore in many cases their backgrounds were shady genealogically speaking.

Really? You mean among the Jews were men...of questionable character?

The obvious fact is that this can be said of all men. Doesn't change some pretty basic evidence we can see in Scripture that the mythology is a false and that it is usually racist motivated.

Any information was largely lost.

And this means what exactly, in terms of Prophecy?

All kinds of claims were made.

Scripture?

Only the priests and a few prestigious families maintained any kind of genealogy. And even these were by hearsay.

So you are implying that the Lord Jesus Christ directed people to go and offer to the Priests that which the Law prescribed.

That would have been contrary to the Law, would it not?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Herod had destroyed large numbers of genealogical records in order to hide his own illegitimacy, and the Temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. From that time on anyone who wished to exalt himself could produce genealogies initially based on Scriptural ones and then add names of their own.

So who added the name of David to the Lord's lineage?

Consider those who knew and recognized Christ's lineage:

The Lord Himself:


Matthew 1:20

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


The common people:

Matthew 9:27

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]27 [/SUP]And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.


Bible Writers:


Matthew 1

King James Version (KJV)


1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Luke 3:31

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,


Romans 1:3

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


So where is your source and the basis for your beliefs?


Continued...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And here I thought the Apostles were associated with the Church, and 12 was associated with governance.
Geesh how silly can I be?
(why do I keep revisiting these eschatology threads?)

Israel is GOD's government.

 

[james57]

For what it's worth, I view this as a euphemism that describes unbelievers. Rather than a reference to the specific people of Canaan.

Just as Amorite does here:


Genesis 15:16

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


Or the Sodomite is here:


2 Kings 23:7

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove.



God bless.

Forgive me, I cant copy paste scripture as I am not using a computer. But would you not believe physical Jews are being referred to in zech12? Only in the last couple of verses specific Jewish clans are mentioned

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And here I thought the Apostles were associated with the Church, and 12 was associated with governance.
Geesh how silly can I be?
(why do I keep revisiting these eschatology threads?)

I am starting to feel the same way. I love studying eschatology and discussing it.

But some things are just so far out there. and even when you try to show them, they can't see it. It is time to say enough is enough, for your own sanity.