Israel Declares War

[maxwel]

1.) Yes, and I do think there are some similarities with her analogy. Namely, a terrorist pointing a gun at a child is not unlike Hamas doing the same thing.

2.) I also agree that analogies are comparison (not equivalences).

I didn't bring that analogy up. I did immaturely repeat common talking points in response. My apologies for that. I can't claim to speak for her own thoughts. I don't think she was trying to say it was an equivalence though.

- Any analogy, any comparison, is contingent upon the existence of some kind of equivalence... some property or aspect that is the same between two things.
- That is what analogies and comparisons are.

You take care.
We can argue about Israel another time, it's not going to change any time some.

.

 

[Smoke]

Forums like this make it very easy to separate the wheat from the chaff and having wheat like
ThereRoseaLamb and others is a real blessing. I don't have the stomach to consume much chaff so I have put at least 5 members of the chaff brigade on hide since this forum started and more will soon follow.

.

Perhaps I'm one of the chaff people and I'm blocked, but if not, you'll find that you can disagree with a brother/sister in Christ on one thread, but completely agree with them on another. Personally, I don't think anyone is really all chaff. Even with people I disagree with, I'm given a different point of view to consider. The worst thing to prevent personal and spiritual growth is to surround yourself with an echo chamber where nothing you do, say, or think is tested.

 

[Cameron143]

I haven't offered solutions of the past... Israel hasn't withdrew it's settlers from the West Bank or East Jerusalem. Israel hasn't ended it's blockade on Gaza.

In 2020, Trump explicitly called Netanyahu out for "never wanting to make peace with Palestinians". The left also didn't want Trump's "Ultimate Deal" to come to fruition because it would mean Trump would have been responsible for one of the biggest peace deals in history. As critical of Trump as I am, this dude would have a big notch on his belt if Netanyahu wasn't so war hungry.

Yes you have offered the solutions of the past. The only way forward is the elimination of Hamas and not allow any like-minded group to enter back in. That's it. Any solution that doesn't reach this minimum will fail. All your solutions fall short of this prerequisite to peace, just as all the failed previous attempted solutions.
If you never meet the requisite conditions for peace, you will never have peace. So instead of lamenting the current estate, lament instead for all the women and children that will continue to die who have yet to be born because the problem was never dealt with.

I've stated before, there is no good solution that will avoid the death of women and children. But it's a pay me now or keep paying forever situation. I'm in favor of taking steps now to solve the problem instead of paying until time ends. You seem to be okay with the problem never ending.

 

[Smoke]

Yes you have offered the solutions of the past. The only way forward is the elimination of Hamas and not allow any like-minded group to enter back in. That's it. Any solution that doesn't reach this minimum will fail. All your solutions fall short of this prerequisite to peace, just as all the failed previous attempted solutions.
If you never meet the requisite conditions for peace, you will never have peace. So instead of lamenting the current estate, lament instead for all the women and children that will continue to die who have yet to be born because the problem was never dealt with.

I've stated before, there is no good solution that will avoid the death of women and children. But it's a pay me now or keep paying forever situation. I'm in favor of taking steps now to solve the problem instead of paying until time ends. You seem to be okay with the problem never ending.

Is it your belief that Hamas exists in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? Has Israel stopped occupying and settling on those territories since they started in 1967? No....? Then this is new and never been done in the past.

I do advocate eradicating Hamas (just now how it's currently being done). I'm not in favor of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Ted01]

Abrhamic Covenant, everlasting and unconditional.

The covenant made with Abraham... (ESV)

Gen. 12:1-3
1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Gen.15:17-21
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites."

Gen. 17:1-8
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, 2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him, 4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."

God seems to be saying that He would make the Covenant with Abraham's offspring?
And that's the Sinai Covenant, right... which had exceptions in it, which I posted earlier.

 

[Cameron143]

Is it your belief that Hamas exists in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? Has Israel stopped occupying and settling on those territories since they started in 1967? No....? Then this is new and never been done in the past.

I do advocate eradicating Hamas (just now how it's currently being done). I'm not in favor of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

And that's why you have no answer but to keep repeating history.

 

[Smoke]

And that's why you have no answer but to keep repeating history.

My apologies if I'm not understanding your point. How is Israel stopping their war crimes on West Bank and East Jerusalem a repeat of history?

Are you saying this suggestion is a repeat? If so, then we do agree.

If you're saying this solution has been done, I don't remember this ever happening since the territories were taken in 1967.

If that's the case, then eradicating Hamas isn't a new solution either. It's a solution I support though. This has been offered as a solution way before Oct 7th.

 

[Cameron143]

My apologies if I'm not understanding your point. How is Israel stopping their war crimes on West Bank and East Jerusalem a repeat of history?

Are you saying this suggestion is a repeat? If so, then we do agree.

If you're saying this solution has been done, I don't remember this ever happening since the territories were taken in 1967.

If that's the case, then eradicating Hamas isn't a new solution either. It's a solution I support though. This has been offered as a solution way before Oct 7th.

It's been offered as a solution but never actually done. But that is the solution.
I admire someone who has love for every person and recognizes, by virtue of the imprinted image of God, their great intrinsic value. But I don't understand why someone wouldn't both want to minimize death and solve the problem over never solving the problem and multiplying deaths. There will either be death now and done with or less death now and multiple times more without an end in sight. You seem to choose never-ending death. I see that as well-meaning, but shortsighted.

 

[Smoke]

It's been offered as a solution but never actually done. But that is the solution.
I admire someone who has love for every person and recognizes, by virtue of the imprinted image of God, their great intrinsic value. But I don't understand why someone wouldn't both want to minimize death and solve the problem over never solving the problem and multiplying deaths. There will either be death now and done with or less death now and multiple times more without an end in sight. You seem to choose never-ending death. I see that as well-meaning, but shortsighted.

You are assuming the proposed alternative solutions wouldn't work though. If we assume no other solution is viable, then it would be true that there will be never-ending death as there will never be peace. You can potentially get to a location (solution) with a variety of routes. That is a false dichotomy to say we need to either bomb more civilians than terrorists to eradicate Hamas or we are for "never-ending death".

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

 

[tobewholeagain]

Where we probably disagree is: Israel has oppressed Palestinians for quite some time, "targeting" Hamas means it's acceptable to kill more civilians than terrorists, Israel is committing war crimes by settling on occupied land (East Jerusalem), a serviceman killing a servicemen is different than a serviceman killing a civilian, etc...

Somethings need repeating until heard.
-

 

[coolio]

Wow, aren’t we having our very own little cc war in this forum. Let’s join in the fun! I believe Israel has every right to the land and should they need to eradicate any vermin who gets in the way, then so be it. They are obviously morally superior, they have noble motives of course, God given , no less. Hamas is subhuman and evil anyway.They deserve to be exterminated. If a few children, older folks and women are around when Israel legitimally bomb the heck out of Gaza, well, consider it collateral damage for the greater good. These people living in Gaza should denounce Hamas by willingly refusing to be used as human shields (stop volonteering for it, gaza folks come on!)and go to the surrounding nations as refugees. They will be welcomed back when israel has finished with Hamas. Israel will not use Gaza as a new israeli settlers location, of course not. Altho, when you think about it they are better stewards of the land than than people from Gaza ever were, look at what they managed to do with their country since they got there!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The covenant made with Abraham... (ESV)

Gen. 12:1-3
1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Gen.15:17-21
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites."

Gen. 17:1-8
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, 2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him, 4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."

God seems to be saying that He would make the Covenant with Abraham's offspring?
And that's the Sinai Covenant, right... which had exceptions in it, which I posted earlier.

Well I like to put it this way. Israel lost use of the land from disobedience at times, but they never lost the deed. So God promised there would be a time where they would be in their land and never uprooted again. But they will inherit the land because that was the unconditional and everlasting covenant that God made.

 

[HeIsHere]

Wow, aren’t we having our very own little cc war in this forum. Let’s join in the fun! I believe Israel has every right to the land and should they need to eradicate any vermin who gets in the way, then so be it. They are obviously morally superior, they have noble motives of course, God given , no less. Hamas is subhuman and evil anyway.They deserve to be exterminated. If a few children, older folks and women are around when Israel legitimally bomb the heck out of Gaza, well, consider it collateral damage for the greater good. These people living in Gaza should denounce Hamas by willingly refusing to be used as human shields (stop volonteering for it, gaza folks come on!)and go to the surrounding nations as refugees. They will be welcomed back when israel has finished with Hamas. Israel will not use Gaza as a new israeli settlers location, of course not. Altho, when you think about it they are better stewards of the land than than people from Gaza ever were, look at what they managed to do with their country since they got there!

Imagine agreeing with this, sad, truly tragic I think I get your point though,

Well done!!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Wow, aren’t we having our very own little cc war in this forum. Let’s join in the fun! I believe Israel has every right to the land and should they need to eradicate any vermin who gets in the way, then so be it. They are obviously morally superior, they have noble motives of course, God given , no less. Hamas is subhuman and evil anyway.They deserve to be exterminated. If a few children, older folks and women are around when Israel legitimally bomb the heck out of Gaza, well, consider it collateral damage for the greater good. These people living in Gaza should denounce Hamas by willingly refusing to be used as human shields (stop volonteering for it, gaza folks come on!)and go to the surrounding nations as refugees. They will be welcomed back when israel has finished with Hamas. Israel will not use Gaza as a new israeli settlers location, of course not. Altho, when you think about it they are better stewards of the land than than people from Gaza ever were, look at what they managed to do with their country since they got there!

I agree, but no one wants to see children killed or maimed. In the end that starts the cycle of hate all over again. In war, nothing can be sure. If Hamas can be cut out there may be small room for peace. But usually someone just like them springs up and takes over. There is a satanic hatred of the Jews, it won't end till Christ returns.

 

[HeIsHere]

Just to be clear, Israel didn't choose Hamas... not directly anyway... the innocent civilians voted Hamas as their representatives.

Just to be clear, Netanhoo bolstered Hamas.

 

[ZNP]

Just to be clear, Netanhoo bolstered Hamas.

Just to be clear, we are in the fog of war, there is nothing clear at this point.

 

[Ted01]

Well I like to put it this way. Israel lost use of the land from disobedience at times, but they never lost the deed. So God promised there would be a time where they would be in their land and never uprooted again. But they will inherit the land because that was the unconditional and everlasting covenant that God made.

Forgive me for asking this again, but after posting what I did, it seems clear to me that it was conditional. Can you show me any Scripture that nullifies the conditions that God gave in Deut. 28?

And I'm unaware of any deed...? That would be a formalized document... what do you mean by that?

 

[ZNP]

Forgive me for asking this again, but after posting what I did, it seems clear to me that it was conditional. Can you show me any Scripture that nullifies the conditions that God gave in Deut. 28?

And I'm unaware of any deed...? That would be a formalized document... what do you mean by that?

I don't think Nullify is the correct word, Israel was punished and Ezekiel tells us how long:

The Years of Punishment Prophecy (part 1)

This prophecy clearly points to the Lord’s second return in 2030.

House of Israel -- 10 tribes to the North

House of Judah -- Judah and Benjamin

Jeremiah 3:6 Moreover, the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king [of Judah], “Have you seen what that faithless Israel has done—how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there she was a prostitute? 7 I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous (faithless) sister Judah saw it. 8 And I saw [that even though Judah knew] that for all the acts of adultery (idolatry) of faithless Israel, I [the Lord] had sent her away and given her a certificate of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah was not afraid; but she went and was a prostitute also [following after idols]. 9 Because of the thoughtlessness of Israel’s prostitution [her immorality mattered little to her], she desecrated the land and committed adultery with [idols of] stones and trees. 10 Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with her whole heart, but rather in [blatant] deception [she merely pretended obedience to King Josiah’s reforms],” declares the Lord.

Israel was divorced and scattered among the Gentiles where they remain to this day. This is why Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was commissioned by God and sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The House of Judah did return to Israel after having been in Babylon, Israel didn’t. However, Judah did not repent with her whole heart.
Ezekiel 37 tells us that both Judah and Israel will be restored and return to the Lord together as one nation.

15 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 16 “And you, son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them together into one stick, so that they may become one in your hand. 18 When your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am going to take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join the stick of Judah with it and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 The sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes. 21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am going to take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king over all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

This takes place right after God raises them from their graves and brings them to Israel.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and make you come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you [back home] to the land of Israel. 13 Then you will know [with confidence] that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and made you come up out of your graves, My people. 14 I will put My Spirit in you and you will come to life, and I will place you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and fulfilled it,” says the Lord.’”

This ushers in the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ.

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they all will have one shepherd. They will also walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live in the land where your fathers lived, [the land] that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they will live there, they and their children and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David will be their leader forever.

Most of the Jews are not walking in the ordinances and statutes and Jesus is not their leader. Before this can take place the punishment period needs to expire. They enter in on Jubilee year 120. So the question is if the year 2030 is the year the Bible says the punishment period will end and the same year as the 120th jubilee year.

 

[ZNP]

The Years of Punishment Prophecy (part 2)

Ezekiel 4 tells us when the punishment years begin and when they will end.

Ezekiel 4:4 “Then lie down on your left side (toward the north) to bear [symbolically] the wickedness and punishment of the house of Israel. You shall bear their wickedness and punishment for the number of days that you lie on your side. 5 For I have assigned you the years of their wickedness and punishment, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days [representing three hundred and ninety years]; in this way you shall bear [symbolically] the wickedness and punishment of the house of Israel. 6 When you have completed these [days for Israel], lie down again, but on your right side (toward the south), and you shall bear the wickedness and punishment of the house of Judah forty days. I have assigned you one day for each year. 7 Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it. 8 Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.

9 “But as for you, take wheat, barley, beans, lentils, millet, and spelt, and put them into one vessel and make them into bread for yourself. You shall eat it according to the number of the days that you lie on your side, three hundred and ninety days. 10 The food you eat each day shall be [measured] by weight, twenty shekels, to be eaten daily at a set time. 11 You shall drink water by measure also, the sixth part of a hin; you shall drink daily at a set time.

390 days for the house of Israel representing 390 years.

40 days for the house of Judah representing 40 years.

Both punishments are related to a siege of Jerusalem. The 390 years of punishment began at the first siege of Jerusalem and the 40 years of punishment leads to the last siege of Jerusalem.

Leviticus 26:18 And I will kill her children (followers) with pestilence [thoroughly annihilating them], and all the churches will know [without any doubt] that I am He who searches the minds and hearts [the innermost thoughts, purposes]; and I will give to each one of you [a reward or punishment] according to your deeds.

The punishment was for 390 years but Israel still did not listen so it was increased sevenfold. The same is with Judah, they also did not listen and so their punishment was also increased sevenfold.

Ezekiel is told to turn his face towards the siege of Jerusalem, so the siege of Jerusalem is the starting point for each time of punishment. The punishment period begins when we see the punishment begin.

Ezekiel 4:1 “Now you, son of man, take a brick, place it before you and inscribe on it [a diagram of] the city of Jerusalem. 2 Then lay siege against it, build a siege wall, raise a ramp against it; set up [enemy] camps and place battering rams all around it. 3 Further, take an iron plate and place it as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.

Ezekiel represents the siege, the brick is Jerusalem, and between the two there is an iron wall. This means this first siege does not break through the wall. They limit food and water, but the first siege is not successful. The punishment of Israel began at the first siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians in 701 BCE. This was the first siege of Jerusalem and it was unsuccessful. This was the beginning of the punishment period for Israel. 311 BCE is 390 years after 701 BCE. Did Israel repent? No.

390 x 7 = 2730 years. 2730 + 701 BCE = 2030 AD (there is no 0 year).

2030 is the next available opportunity for Israel to repent, return to the Lord and be joined to Judah to enter into the reign of Jesus the Messiah according to Ezekiel 37.

Now let’s look at the punishment for the house of Judah.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who murders the prophets and stones [to death] those [messengers] who are sent to her [by God]! How often I wanted to gather your children together [around Me], as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Listen carefully: your house is being left to you desolate [completely abandoned by God and destitute of His protection]! 39 For I say to you, you will not see Me again [ministering to you publicly] until you say, ‘Blessed [to be celebrated with praise] is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Their punishment began in 30 AD when Jesus was crucified. According to the record they were punished for 40 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. The curtain separating the holy of holies was torn asunder. Every year for forty years the temple doors would not stay shut, the Menorah would not stay lit for forty years, the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand for forty years and the Yom Kippur scarlet thread would not turn white for forty years.

They failed to repent and so the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem began their 7 fold punishment period.

40x7=280, 280+70 = 350 AD.

Did they repent in 350 AD?

So then 280 x 7 = 1960 years. They have already served the first 280 year period.

1960 + 70 = 2030

2030 is the first and last time that Judah and Israel can repent, and be joined together as one stick. After this their punishment periods will not end at the same time. Both punishment periods would be multiplied by 7 and they will never mathematically sync up again.

While Ezekiel is laying on his side he is to only eat 20 shekels weight of food and ⅙ hin of water.

20 x 6 = 120. Pointing us to 120 jubilees.

120 x 50 = 6,000. Pointing us to the 6,000 years that to God is 6 days in which He creates a man.

Finally, the punishment period of the House of Israel is represented by his laying on his left side and the punishment period for the house of Judah is depicted by laying on his right side.

If we have a timeline the right side would begin after the siege of Israel, and the left side would begin before the siege of Israel, but that is because in the west we read from left to right. In Hebrew it is the opposite, they read from right to left. So then for the Jews this is the opposite, the punishment for Israel begins with the siege of Jerusalem, whereas the punishment for Judah begins 40 years before the siege of Jerusalem when they crucified Jesus.