Is unconditional election biblical?
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Moses first miracle was turning water to blood.
Jesus first miracle was turning water to wine, a type of blood.
Genesis 15:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Hebrews 11:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
Can someone explain the difference between belief and faith? And why is the sentence obeyed and went used instead of commanded and went? Why obey? If you are like a computer software that reacts to the the computer programmer's codes? All God needs to do is command it.
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Hebrews 11:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
Can someone explain the difference between belief and faith? And why is the sentence obeyed and went used instead of commanded and went? Why obey? If you are like a computer software that reacts to the the computer programmer's codes? All God needs to do is command it.
Bravo my intellect is far superior... haha wrong.
You must of missed the parts where God increases my faith towards belief in every step of the way.
I agree with your conclusion and so does the poll.Not yet studied Greek here but the English, saving faith is not a mere profession but rather a possession. To receive is to get or come into possession. Accepting this is true, perhaps the Greek for the two means the same. But of course, this is not to force, you have either to believe it or not.
Agreed. If God forced Adam or Eve or Satan then God is the author or evil and the cause of the fall against His design. Very contradictory to God's nature. These debates are so silly but fun to see how people try to explain free will away but at the same time philosophically proving it as they think, reason and disagree.
I think it would be funny if people's souls weren't involved.
TULIP cannot be defined and defended as God's plan using proper exegesis and Soteriology.
The tragic and I mean really tragic part of TULIP defenders exhortations , be they Piper or some other adherent in the pulpit or on YouTube, or just supposed faithful in online forums is this. They do not realize the image and likeness of the god they worship under that mantel is not only not the actual God of Abraham but is His adversary; Satan.
Unless or until those devotees find their way to the light of Christ, they're doomed.
They have ears but they do not hear, can't because they were made totally depraved first. They have eyes but they do not see, same reason. Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
The reality of their conviction however insures they shall not do so. Because they first and foremost believe, they are incapable in and of themselves. They believe that the god of TULIP has put them where he wants them to be.
God would that none should perish.
TULIP says, its god predetermined damnation after he predetermined whom he'd rescue from that fate. Then he'd make them to be in his grace, and he'd make them to have faith in him. So that forever in this life they shall ever remain saved from the condition TULIP's god created for them.
This is why people hearing of the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) doctrine and who are not of the TULIP formula denounce it as not of God.
I think it is because of the smear TULIP has put upon it. Perseverance of its saints, saved no matter what they do, being they are still totally depraved, but....saved....having faith.....in the grace.....the god that thinks total depravity + grace+faith ='s salvation.
Is it any wonder John Calvin was an unrepentant accomplice to premeditated first degree murder of Michael Servetus?
He was in the service of his TULIP god.
And right he was too.
That's how we know TULIP's god is not our God.
As if we need more scripture.
Of course, we always need more scripture.
THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P.
REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE
Compiled by John Henry
Moses bringing the plagues into Egypt was purposeful through God's workings against Pharoah and the polytheist idolatry Egyptians clung to. That's why God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and told Moses of this, before He sent Moses forth into Egypt.
All the plagues that befell Egypt happened by Moses' God doing His will upon the elements the Egyptian's Pantheon of god's and goddesses ruled over.
The god of the Nile, Hapi, did nothing to overcome the water of the Nile being turned to blood.
Even when Aaron threw the staff of Moses onto the floor in Pharaoh's chamber, the Book of Exodus chapter 7, and it turned into a snake, that too was to challenge the god's of Egypt.
What scripture? Which one? Please post the scripture that says, vine tree. Thank you in advance.
Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The LORD has made them both.
how this is connected to Romans 10:17?
it testifies of Christ - what other pieces do we need to see Him at work in these two truths?
AMEN!
Remember too, Jesus said He was not sent not to the righteous but to the sinners. Not to the well, but to the sick, to call them to repentance.
The Book of Luke chapter 5:27 through 32 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. "Follow me," Jesus said to him, 28and Levi got up, left everything and followed him. 29Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?" 31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
The Book of Mark chapter 2 verse 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Could it be that when Jesus was speaking of and to His Father and referring to those He(God the Father) had given Him, Jesus, that Jesus was referring to the sick, the sinners? Rather than as some think, the predetermined elect whom He was only to die for?
The throngs came to the mountain and listened to Jesus' sermon there. Were they all the elect?
And what of those Disciples that walked with Jesus for a time, and then departed? When Jesus had fed the 5,000, the Book of John chapter 6
Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
John 6:65. Therefore said I unto you— "Because I knew that there were false-hearted pretenders among you, therefore, for your conviction and caution, and for distinguishing real from nominal believers, I told you before (John 6:44.) that no man can savingly believe in me, unless my Father draw him by his Spirit, and thereby give him grace and strength to come to me. But God commences and continues this divine drawing in every heart of man, till his influences be so resisted as to oblige him to withdraw himself from the soul; for he will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." See 1 Timothy 2:4 and the note on John 6:37.
Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
John 6:65. Therefore said I unto you— "Because I knew that there were false-hearted pretenders among you, therefore, for your conviction and caution, and for distinguishing real from nominal believers, I told you before (John 6:44.) that no man can savingly believe in me, unless my Father draw him by his Spirit, and thereby give him grace and strength to come to me. But God commences and continues this divine drawing in every heart of man, till his influences be so resisted as to oblige him to withdraw himself from the soul; for he will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." See 1 Timothy 2:4 and the note on John 6:37.
That's a good, Christian, biblical and thoughtful post bro. Keep them coming!here is what Romans 11:32 has to do with "man can't be depraved because an Omni-benevolent & omniscient God created him after His image and likeness"
we'll call that statement A
A presumes that it is not good that man is concluded under sin.
the scripture says, God concluded all under sin.
if A is true then Romans 11:32 either isn't true, or it doesn't mean anything like what it literally says.
that 's what it has to do with your remarks.
the scripture says God concluded us all in sin, in unbelief. and it says why He did so: in order that He might have mercy on us all.
Jesus Christ is the righteousness and the demonstration of the mercy of God:
For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)scripture says why He concluded all under sin, and it is good: in order that He might show mercy to all. in order demonstrate His righteousness. in order that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Him. in order that boasting be excluded. in order that all things be to His glory.
consider the situation when Adam and the woman became poisoned by sin. He could have destroyed them in condemnation immediately, and be just. but in His mercy He pronounced the judgement of The Seed and cursed the ground for Adam's sake. and Adam understood, and changed her name to Eve.
God allowed you and i to have existence.
in order to have mercy on us.
in order to demonstrate His righteousness.
in order to be just and The Justifier of us whosoever has faith in Him.
in order to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels He created for His mercy.
in order to make His great power and patience known.
in order that boasting be excluded.
in order to work all things together for His good.
because it is His good pleasure.
because everything He does is good.
because He does all His will.
because He knows and declares the end from the beginning.
because His word doesn't go out without accomplishing its purpose.
because He is the Beginning and the End.
i hope that makes sense now?
would you mind telling me what you think Romans 11:32 means?
thanks
"Primitive Baptist" church.oh really?
is this where you deviate from all that limited atonement nonsense?
I mean if you are one of the elect, you are one of the elect no matter where you may be in life
so really, he was always saved in your economy
just more word salad and the dressing is past it's best before date
you belong to possibly an even worse group...the Baptist whatever you call yourselves
We are all creations of God. The Book of Colossians chapter 1
And if scripture is to be believed as God's words to us, we are all, all of us all over the world, God's children.
The Book of John chapter 1
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
I am not really a fan of studying Greek or of using Greek Lexicon, I study English. For discussion sake, Kittel, as translated by Geoffrey Bromiley, has this to say regards to the Greek "lambano" p440
lambánō.
1. From the basic sense ―to take,‖ lambánō acquires the active senses a. ―to take to oneself,‖ ―to receive,‖ ―to collect,‖ and b. ―to seize.‖
2. It also takes on the more passive sense ―to acquire‖ and middle ―to hold or grasp something or someone.‖
This grasping or holding can be used literally and figuratively and the word 'believe' simply means to hold as true. Accordingly, the Bible definition is also found in John 7:39.
John 7:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Nothing unless you read the entire chapter so as to put one line from that chapter into context.here is what Romans 11:32 has to do with "man can't be depraved because an Omni-benevolent & omniscient God created him after His image and likeness"
we'll call that statement A
A presumes that it is not good that man is concluded under sin.
the scripture says, God concluded all under sin.
if A is true then Romans 11:32 either isn't true, or it doesn't mean anything like what it literally says.
that 's what it has to do with your remarks.
the scripture says God concluded us all in sin, in unbelief. and it says why He did so: in order that He might have mercy on us all.
Jesus Christ is the righteousness and the demonstration of the mercy of God:
For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)scripture says why He concluded all under sin, and it is good: in order that He might show mercy to all. in order demonstrate His righteousness. in order that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Him. in order that boasting be excluded. in order that all things be to His glory.
consider the situation when Adam and the woman became poisoned by sin. He could have destroyed them in condemnation immediately, and be just. but in His mercy He pronounced the judgement of The Seed and cursed the ground for Adam's sake. and Adam understood, and changed her name to Eve.
God allowed you and i to have existence.
in order to have mercy on us.
in order to demonstrate His righteousness.
in order to be just and The Justifier of us whosoever has faith in Him.
in order to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels He created for His mercy.
in order to make His great power and patience known.
in order that boasting be excluded.
in order to work all things together for His good.
because it is His good pleasure.
because everything He does is good.
because He does all His will.
because He knows and declares the end from the beginning.
because His word doesn't go out without accomplishing its purpose.
because He is the Beginning and the End.
i hope that makes sense now?
would you mind telling me what you think Romans 11:32 means?
thanks
Verse 32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief - Συνεκλεισε γαρ ὁ Θεος, God hath shut or locked them all up under unbelief. This refers to the guilty state of both Jews and Gentiles. They had all broken God's law - the Jews, the written law; the Gentiles, the law written in their hearts; see Romans 1:19, Romans 1:20; Romans 2:14, Romans 2:15. They are represented here as having been accused of their transgressions; tried at God's bar; found guilty on being tried; condemned to the death they had merited; remanded to prison, till the sovereign will, relative to their execution, should be announced; shut or locked up, under the jailer, unbelief; and there both continued in the same state, awaiting the execution of their sentence: but God, in his own compassion, moved by no merit in either party, caused a general pardon by the Gospel to be proclaimed to all. The Jews have refused to receive this pardon on the terms which God has proposed it, and therefore continue locked up under unbelief. The Gentiles have welcomed the offers of grace, and are delivered out of their prison. But, as the offers of mercy continue to be made to all indiscriminately, the time will come when the Jews, seeing the vast accession of the Gentile world to the kingdom of the Messiah, and the glorious privileges which they in consequence enjoy, shall also lay hold on the hope set before them, and thus become with the Gentiles one flock under one shepherd and bishop of all their souls. The same figure is used Galatians 3:22, Galatians 3:23. But the Scripture hath concluded συνεκλεισεν, locked up all under sin, that the promise, by faith of Christ Jesus, might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept, εφρουρουμεθα, we were guarded as in a strong hold, under the law; shut up, συγκεκλεισμενοι, locked up together unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. It is a fine and well chosen metaphor in both places, and forcibly expresses the guilty, helpless, wretched state of both Jews and Gentiles.
TULIP is not refuted by scripture. TULIP is re-inforced by scripture.I think it would be funny if people's souls weren't involved.
TULIP cannot be defined and defended as God's plan using proper exegesis and Soteriology.
The tragic and I mean really tragic part of TULIP defenders exhortations , be they Piper or some other adherent in the pulpit or on YouTube, or just supposed faithful in online forums is this. They do not realize the image and likeness of the god they worship under that mantel is not only not the actual God of Abraham but is His adversary; Satan.
Unless or until those devotees find their way to the light of Christ, they're doomed.
They have ears but they do not hear, can't because they were made totally depraved first. They have eyes but they do not see, same reason. Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
The reality of their conviction however insures they shall not do so. Because they first and foremost believe, they are incapable in and of themselves. They believe that the god of TULIP has put them where he wants them to be.
God would that none should perish.
TULIP says, its god predetermined damnation after he predetermined whom he'd rescue from that fate. Then he'd make them to be in his grace, and he'd make them to have faith in him. So that forever in this life they shall ever remain saved from the condition TULIP's god created for them.
This is why people hearing of the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) doctrine and who are not of the TULIP formula denounce it as not of God.
I think it is because of the smear TULIP has put upon it. Perseverance of its saints, saved no matter what they do, being they are still totally depraved, but....saved....having faith.....in the grace.....the god that thinks total depravity + grace+faith ='s salvation.
Is it any wonder John Calvin was an unrepentant accomplice to premeditated first degree murder of Michael Servetus?
He was in the service of his TULIP god.
And right he was too.
That's how we know TULIP's god is not our God.
As if we need more scripture.
Of course, we always need more scripture.
THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P.
REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE
Compiled by John Henry
Total Depravity - Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Romans 10:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Do you understand what these scriptures are saying?
Its saying that people AREN'T good. People AREN'T Righteous. People DON'T understand God. People DON'T seek after God.
It is God that seeks after people. It is God that makes people Righteous. It is God that helps people to understand. It is God that helps people to be good.