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Old indeed. I chuckled when I saw it. It's the tread that refused to die.
Let me ask you. Do you need infinite knowledge to know that Ganesh, the Hindu elephant headed god doesn't exist? Personally this is not a deity I have ever believed in the existence of and so I don't think I need infinite knowledge to simply dismiss him. Can I say the same thing of leprechauns? I think I can. I don't have to disprove them. I can simply dismiss them. So for yourself, what do you have to do to sustain the belief that Ganesh and leprechauns don't exist? Do you find it challenging?
Do you see the problem with Ravi Zacharias' claim? Most people who don't believe God exists don't expend any energy worrying about it and it never occurs to them that Zacharias might think they need infinite knowledge before they can dismiss belief in his deity.
ColinCat, welcome to the forum. Enjoy your stay. Oh, by the way. I am an atheist.
Regarding Satan, I wonder whether he delegates to his underlings? Do his underlings ever act without his knowledge?
Then there is that little matter with Job. It seems God and Satan were on speaking terms back then.
Just thought I'd give the pot a stir.
Phil, another thought has come to me. Is it up to you, the non-believer in Ganesh and leprechauns to prove the non-existence of these two types of beings or is it up to the believers to demonstrate their existence? Who does the burden of proof lie with?
Let's start off simple.. reel off a few specific examples of the people Satan killed.
Never mind belief or spiritual understanding. We are both working from the same source material and both have the same information available to us.
The problem is not what I can or cannot point out, it's what you can or cannot spiritually apprehend.
You can spiritually apprehend nothing. . .zip. . .zero. . .nada. . .
The burden of proof for God's existence lies only with God.
And he has done so.
He proves it only in the paradigm where the atheist's rationale has no validity nor access,
where he declares:
"What may be known about God is plain to those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him,
but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools. . ."
You can bring to bear on these things all the reasoning and rationale you can muster
from the atheist paradigm, but all are absolutely powerless against the things in God's paradigm.
So you're really wasting your time with your foolishness which to you is wisdom
but, in the paradigm of God's light, is only darkness.
And one has to be in the God's light before he can even know what is darkness.
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phil112
Guest
Cycel, it is up to me to put my belief in God out there as long as someone bends an ear. Not trying to shove anything down anyones throat, but if one listens I will willingly use all truth I have available to persuade them.
Cycel said:
You side-stepped the question, but I suspect you agree with me that the burden of proof would not lie with either of us to disprove the existence of Ganesh or leprechauns, and I think that answers the other half of the question I might pose.
We came naked into the world. We brought nothing into life and will carry nothing physical out of it. Life and breath were gifts at the start. Through hard work, sweat and a little ingenuity in this sin-cursed world we may have gained some income and assets but really everything we have is derived from something that we were given. Can you prove that we don't owe love and thanks and honor to our Ultimate Originator?
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phil112
Guest
Didn't mean to make it sound like I was avoiding. Thought you had read enough from me to understand where I am. All creation testifies of a creator. God is the only reasonable explanation for us, and everything else, being here. I know you don't accept that proof, and as I have said, God has proven Himself to me by answering several very pointed prayers in a miraculous manner. I know God is.
On the other hand, you can offer no proof of any kind of leprechauns. There has been a lot of people look at the end of the rainbow and none of them has come up with that pot of gold yet.
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Kerry
Guest
Cycel is fence rider, he see's the fallacy of evolution yet not convinced of creation, I would ask for your prayers.
For me fear is never a reason to follow God....Would I follow God because He is going to zap me out of existence if I don't...that reasoning is not for me...Why would I want to follow God or even believe in Him?
Well for one thing He created the world for me to have a place to live and it wasn't half bad in the beginning that is. Everything was perfect and in pure harmony Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the Garden of Eden... Oh to be a fly on a tree watching that exchange and what they would be talking about.
God keeps everything going in His entire creation it is awesome just to think about. I worry about keeping one household going smoothly and I can't comprehend the complex amount of responsibility that God has keeping His all of His creation going. I am less than a grain of sand in the vastness of God, and yet He knows every detail about me and even knows the number of hairs that are on my head...I wouldn't even take the time to try and count them. He also has said that I am engraved on the palm of His hand.
When the error was made and man chose to know the difference between good and evil God had a plan to get us back to Him as the sin that was let loose on this world then separated us from direct contact with Him and we started hiding from Him in shame. God called out where are you? Have you eaten from the tree? Who told you that you were naked? In love He explained that there would come a Savior who would crush the head of the serpent Satan but Satan would bruise Jesus heel. God even in the Garden explained His plan of love to get us reunited with Him someday back to the face to face conversations that had been had in the Garden with Adam and Eve.
He proved His love when Jesus died on the cross for your sins and mine. He has said I have loved you with an everlasting love, can a mother forget her child? I will never forget or abandon you, I have engraved you on the palm of my hands, I will be with you to the end of the world, I will never leave or forsake you.
No I will never love a God out of fear of punishment, But I will love a God who while I was yet a sinner sent His only Son Jesus to die for my sins and mistakes, because I deserve death as that is the wages of sin, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I will love God because of the vastness of His love for a sin sick world and all of the people in it. A God who has provided a way out and back to Him. I will follow God because of His Great Love For me.
I respectfully disagree. Almighty God has revealed Himself as just and severe as well as loving and kind. Idolatry was a common problem during many centuries covered in the historical narrative of the Bible. We must respond fully to God as He has truly revealed Himself to be. When Bible prophecy is fulfilled further and the Day of Judgment arrives and Jesus separates humanity into two groups with two very different eternal destinies, then we will see differently. I anticipate that God will be shown to be much more Holy, Pure and Majestic than we imagined and humanity will be shown to be much depraved, deceitful and wicked than we imagined. Sin against God's Person and Law will be seen as much more sinful and wicked than it is seen today. God will be praised by saints for his justice towards some and mercy towards others. The potter has sovereign power over the clay to make the types of vessels that he or she chooses. God will glorified in both the vessels of wrath and justice as well as the vessels of mercy.
Consider Jesus's Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. Jesus Christ said many difficult things or hard sayings. Hell fire was part of the message. The fear of God is a pervasive Biblical theme throughout the Bible from Job and Genesis to Revelation.
An infinite God inaugurates an infinite eternity for all human creatures. It is a solemn and fearful theme to consider.
"I call it the highest duty, because it is, as I may call it, not only a duty in itself, but, as it were, the salt that seasoneth every duty. For there is no duty performed by us that can by any means be accepted of God, if it be not seasoned with godly fear." - John Bunyan (b. 1628, d. 1688, Author of Pilgrim's Progress), The Fear of God
Kerry, you just make things up. When you are ready to be reasonable I will chat with you.
There it is in the first line.... I don't know, therefore GOD.
We can't just go with a supernatural explanation right off the bat.
My oven stopped working the other day, they guy came to fix it but he couldn't. He couldn't identify what the reason was either ... So does that mean it was supernatural?
I just stated to you why I would not follow God out of fear of punishment. This is correct in my personal belief, I believe also that Satan had a view of God that He was not just and fair and God's character has been called into question. I believe that God is a God of Love with and escape plan for humans who would want to accept the gift of salvation as we are free will agents. Those who are lost will have rejected a God of Love because the Bible plainly states that God Is Love.
You have a right to your opinion, but I would venture a guess that most would reject following a God because of fear. I would not want to follow a vengeful God.
However, if you want to talk about punishment. Yes, it will happen the Bible calls this God's strange act/work. Meaning yes sin and evil must be done away with and the earth purified with fire because sin/evil/wickedness and a Holy God don't exist in the same place. But the wicked that will be destroyed will have rejected the God of Love that I have been talking about by refusing to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.
You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. But scared people going to heaven are a different breed than people going to heaven because of love and I am speaking of God's love here.
Cycel said:
I know you feel this way. Probably more than a few feel the same way for Ganesh. Maybe even some feel this way about leprechauns.
We both know that leprechaun gold is said to be very elusive. And besides, I don't believe in leprechauns either, and I know neither of us believes in Ganesh, but that's not the point.Cycel said:
You posted the quote from Ravi Zacharias, stating that, “To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheists must demonstrate infinite knowledge.” Clearly you felt this was legitimately stated, or you would not have posted it. I am asking, if you substituted Ganesh for God, would the statement still be true?
“To sustain the belief that there is no Ganesh, non-believers must demonstrate infinite knowledge.” Can you truly prove there is no Ganesh? Can you prove there are no leprechauns? Do you not need infinite knowledge to reject belief in the existence of both these beings? That’s the argument Zacharias made and that you put forward.
You have told me you are absolutely convinced of the existence of God. You seem equally convinced leprechauns do not exist, but you didn’t mention Ganesh. I wonder, without infinite knowledge, how do you sustain belief Ganesh and leprechauns don’t also exist?
Do you now see the problem with Zacharias’ statement? We don’t need to sustain disbelief in Ganesh because the elephant-headed god has no validity in our minds and for the atheist Yahweh feels no more real than either Ganesh or leprechauns. We don’t require infinite knowledge to disprove those things we know don’t exist. You’d agree with that, yes? Does this make sense to you?