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Is the "Trinity" False?
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psychomom
Guest
My dear friend, I do not know your heart, and I am not certain I understand properly your position on this issue. I don't blame you for feeling attacked, either. ♥
Sometimes I wonder if it's the way we've been taught to think and say things, and sometimes I think we actually mean the same thing, but this forum doesn't allow us to q-u-i-t-e get our thoughts across. (and , if you're like me...well, I can't get my thoughts well enough organized and written right! lol)
If you can agree with what what red33 said, I think you're doing just fine.
Hope that helps?
love,
ellie
I believe it matters greatly! If, like the OP, you believe Jesus is not God, it matters to your eternal life! The understanding of the trinity is the understanding of God Himself!
While some Christian denominations may have differences which do not matter unto salvation, like which day to worship (IMO), some have differences that have huge consequences, such as those who claim oneness, or other such heresies. It then matters to their eternal lives.
The Word will tell us all we need to know to live Godly lives; lives that please Him, but it takes much more than preaching love, because God commands more than love for one another...He commands love for Himself!. (not to vilify you, beloved, or to say that love for our fellow men is not also greatly important!) But just to say we must delve into that Word ourselves, and be taught the Word of truth by someone with the gift for it (Rom 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 1:28) who can rightly divide it.
Of course all in Christ have the Holy Spirit, but we can see that the Lord would not gift some with the ability to teach if the Body did not need it.
Respectfully,
~ellie
Love for God is realising; fighting for ritualism is pointless. You're just as unworthy as I am.
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wwjd_kilden
Guest
My dear friend, I do not know your heart, and I am not certain I understand properly your position on this issue. I don't blame you for feeling attacked, either. ♥
Sometimes I wonder if it's the way we've been taught to think and say things, and sometimes I think we actually mean the same thing, but this forum doesn't allow us to q-u-i-t-e get our thoughts across. (and , if you're like me...well, I can't get my thoughts well enough organized and written right! lol)
If you can agree with what what red33 said, I think you're doing just fine.
Hope that helps?
love,
ellie
Thank you
Yes, I do agree with what he says.
And yeah, I guess I get lost in all these fancy words used in here, I prefer to keep it simple, but it seems like that causes confusion too.
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psychomom
Guest
Oh, yes! I'm sorry that I gave you the impression I consider myself in any manner "worthy".
In fact, I feel I have replaced Paul as "chief of sinners". I do not say this in any way to be taken lightly, only that the glimpse I have gotten of my own heart is as ugly as can be.
But thank God, I am righteous (positionally) through faith in Christ Jesus, as are all who believe upon Him for salvation. (Rom. 3:22)
I do not wish to offend you, brother. If we disagree, I hope it will be in peace.
It's just that I don't consider the Word to be "ritualism". It is the Word of life for all who believe.
well yes but my righteousness (positionally) isn't for me to decide. It's for God.
That's the thing.
I don't consider myself in the good book.
Becuase true, unshakeable belief like Jesus' is impossible for man. I can never really 'believe in Jesus and have everlasting life'.
Real belief would see me become as He was. And for man, that's impossible.
That's the thing.
I don't consider myself in the good book.
Becuase true, unshakeable belief like Jesus' is impossible for man. I can never really 'believe in Jesus and have everlasting life'.
Real belief would see me become as He was. And for man, that's impossible.
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
U say the teaching of Oneness is a heresy, but the teaching of trinity own Biblical. The Bible doesn't say that the Father, Son,and Holy Ghost are seperate from each other. And here's a question about the trinity, if they are seperate from each other then why did Jesus tell Phillip when he asked him show us the Father and it will satisfy us,Jesus said have I been so long time with u and u still don't know me Phillip. If he and the Father are seperate he had the chance to tell Phillip right there that they are seperate. But he didn't he gave him a answer indicating he was the Father. He didn't say my Father is in heaven or my Father is somewhere else,he said have I been so long time with u and yet u don't remember me. That verse is saying he is the Father. God bless.
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
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Bea22
Guest
What amazes me about people who believe the trinity is they make a claim that God is One and yet the emphasis is clearly on three - hence the term trinity.
The origins of trinity doctrine are linked back to Catholicism - and protestants the world over try to claim God is One and yet they don't really get it, that's why they are so against the belief that One God can be manifested in three ways without it being three separate distinct persons. They cannot see that God is an eternal being out of which came forth a logos Son in spirit form who was made flesh. He was Melchizedek who ate with Abraham, He was the Captain of the Lord of Hosts who appeared before Joshua, He was the fourth man in the fire with the Hebrew children. He is Jesus Christ.
You get a bucket and fill it with ocean water, that water is part of the ocean, it is made up of all the same chemicals, it is simply in another vessel. The vessel cannot contain the whole ocean therefore it cannot be called the Ocean. But the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Meaning it pleased the Father - eternal being - to dwell in Him. When the following verses are understood properly, you can see that Jesus the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS the Father, there is no difference. Jesus Christ - the Word made flesh - was conceived of the Holy Spirit. He IS God, He can create a flesh body and step into it whenever He pleases, and He did so in times within the OT. In the NT, He chose to come as a baby and grow up as a man.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Like Red alluded to, the Holy Spirit is a measure of God which is promised to dwell with and in His people. God - the eternal being - could not come in FULL and dwell within men and women like us, so He comes in another form to us, in measure. That is how you get Jesus saying He will send the comforter - the Holy Spirit - and also saying "I" (PERSONAL PRONOUN) will come to you and a little while and the world seeth me no more, but ye shall see me for I will be with you until the end".
This Holy Spirit is God in measure and yet Christ's second coming is Him IN FULL. Where is the Father now? He is in Christ - they are One. So you can safely say that when Christ comes the second time, it is God. Likewise, when Jesus Christ sits on the throne, it is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all complete in Him.
The distinction can be made in terms of the Holy Spirit in measure in God's people. They are not God, but they have a measure of the Holy Spirit in them - Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus Christ has the fullness in Him - not a measure - for He IS God.
As for people throwing around the word heresy like they have the right interpretation of the Godhead, they remind me of Pharisees. If you were humble, you'd be less likely to use that term regardless of whether you feel you have the right interpretation or not. All you really have is an interpretation - just like everyone else - and you are basically calling anyone who disagrees with your interpretation an heretic. If that's not arrogance for a 'correct revelation of the Godhead' of which, I'm assuming, you believe you got from God, then I wonder what great works you did to get it, seeing as it cannot be God's grace that revealed it to you, humble that you are. You're entitled to your opinion, however, be mindful of those who are also entitled to theirs and to disagree with you.
And by all means, call black black and white white and heresy heresy if you feel you have the complete Truth of every single scripture. Otherwise you could be a heretic yourself.
If you believe there is One God then call Him by His title - Jesus Christ. In Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Unless you distinctly want to have them separate - as with trinity - and then you are traveling along the lines of the Mormons who believe three Gods in three forms. I know you claim otherwise - that it is ONE being.
Do trinitarians want to place the emphasis on Three or One?
Like I said in an earlier post - if you see One you see all three. If you see three you see three unless you can see they are all One in fulness in Jesus Christ.
By the way, all these terms are pointless if you are arguing for the same thing: One God.
The origins of trinity doctrine are linked back to Catholicism - and protestants the world over try to claim God is One and yet they don't really get it, that's why they are so against the belief that One God can be manifested in three ways without it being three separate distinct persons. They cannot see that God is an eternal being out of which came forth a logos Son in spirit form who was made flesh. He was Melchizedek who ate with Abraham, He was the Captain of the Lord of Hosts who appeared before Joshua, He was the fourth man in the fire with the Hebrew children. He is Jesus Christ.
You get a bucket and fill it with ocean water, that water is part of the ocean, it is made up of all the same chemicals, it is simply in another vessel. The vessel cannot contain the whole ocean therefore it cannot be called the Ocean. But the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Meaning it pleased the Father - eternal being - to dwell in Him. When the following verses are understood properly, you can see that Jesus the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS the Father, there is no difference. Jesus Christ - the Word made flesh - was conceived of the Holy Spirit. He IS God, He can create a flesh body and step into it whenever He pleases, and He did so in times within the OT. In the NT, He chose to come as a baby and grow up as a man.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Like Red alluded to, the Holy Spirit is a measure of God which is promised to dwell with and in His people. God - the eternal being - could not come in FULL and dwell within men and women like us, so He comes in another form to us, in measure. That is how you get Jesus saying He will send the comforter - the Holy Spirit - and also saying "I" (PERSONAL PRONOUN) will come to you and a little while and the world seeth me no more, but ye shall see me for I will be with you until the end".
This Holy Spirit is God in measure and yet Christ's second coming is Him IN FULL. Where is the Father now? He is in Christ - they are One. So you can safely say that when Christ comes the second time, it is God. Likewise, when Jesus Christ sits on the throne, it is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all complete in Him.
The distinction can be made in terms of the Holy Spirit in measure in God's people. They are not God, but they have a measure of the Holy Spirit in them - Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus Christ has the fullness in Him - not a measure - for He IS God.
As for people throwing around the word heresy like they have the right interpretation of the Godhead, they remind me of Pharisees. If you were humble, you'd be less likely to use that term regardless of whether you feel you have the right interpretation or not. All you really have is an interpretation - just like everyone else - and you are basically calling anyone who disagrees with your interpretation an heretic. If that's not arrogance for a 'correct revelation of the Godhead' of which, I'm assuming, you believe you got from God, then I wonder what great works you did to get it, seeing as it cannot be God's grace that revealed it to you, humble that you are. You're entitled to your opinion, however, be mindful of those who are also entitled to theirs and to disagree with you.
And by all means, call black black and white white and heresy heresy if you feel you have the complete Truth of every single scripture. Otherwise you could be a heretic yourself.
If you believe there is One God then call Him by His title - Jesus Christ. In Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Unless you distinctly want to have them separate - as with trinity - and then you are traveling along the lines of the Mormons who believe three Gods in three forms. I know you claim otherwise - that it is ONE being.
Do trinitarians want to place the emphasis on Three or One?
Like I said in an earlier post - if you see One you see all three. If you see three you see three unless you can see they are all One in fulness in Jesus Christ.
By the way, all these terms are pointless if you are arguing for the same thing: One God.
O
oopsies
Guest
Hey oopsies, sorry to be particular but the Trinity doctrine believes God is three distinct separate persons, like said definition of Mormonism ^.
The other view is that the same God is manifested in three forms. Seems like the difference is a razors edge and yet it's a big difference
No need to be sorry. But the Christian view of the Trinity is not three distinct persons. Perhaps a better way to explain it is this: Mormonism holds that each of the Trinity is a god unto itself (so, three gods to make one). The difference is that the Christian view of the Trinity is that they are not three individual gods but one with three representations. You are right that it is indeed a very fine difference.
B
Bea22
Guest
Hi oopsies
There are many terms, Wiki explains it further because half of these I haven't heard of.
Monotheism is the belief in One distinct being. Most beliefs are of One distinct being but they branch out.
There is Unitarianism which is the belief in One God and leaning towards Jesus being a prophet.
There is Oneness which believe that One distinct being manifests himself in three ways, as Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit.
Modalism which is One God in three aspects or forms as perceived by the individual, rather than three coeternal persons in God. Oneness and Modalism appear similar, not sure if they are exactly the same.
There is Binitarianism which is the belief of two in the Godhead, Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is the power that flows between Father and Son.
Trinitarianism is One God in three divine persons. Each are co-equal, co-exist but are of one being.
Mormonism - Church of latter day saints - belief is three gods in three forms.
Copied from Wiki
Like Trinitarians, Oneness adherents believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. However, whereas Trinitarians believe that "God the Son", the eternal second person of the Trinity, became man, Oneness adherents hold that the one and only true God—who manifests himself in any way he chooses, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit—became man.
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GreenNnice
Guest
Beaaussie, must we keep agreeing like this ?
You got it ! God is of Jesus, Jesus is of God, Jesus is of Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit is of Jesus. God is of Holy Spirit . Holy Spirit is of God.
Some verses: I and the Father are one. And If you had seen my Father you would have seen Me.
One. One, one, one, one, one-one-one
Last edited by a moderator:
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hermanodaniel
Guest
So you're saying Jesus sent himself? Think about that for a minute... Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father because He is EXPRESSED IMAGE OF THE FATHER (Hebrews 1:3) Since Jesus is the Word of God of course He is going to reflect who exactly the Father is because Jesus is the expression of the Father! The Word of God, that is, expression of who God is and God are one in the same but the Bible says that this Word proceeds from the Father indicating that two persons are present. The Word of God and God who spoke His Word.
O
oopsies
Guest
Hi oopsies
There are many terms, Wiki explains it further because half of these I haven't heard of.
Monotheism is the belief in One distinct being. Most beliefs are of One distinct being but they branch out.
There is Unitarianism which is the belief in One God and leaning towards Jesus being a prophet.
There is Oneness which believe that One distinct being manifests himself in three ways, as Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit.
Modalism which is One God in three aspects or forms as perceived by the individual, rather than three coeternal persons in God. Oneness and Modalism appear similar, not sure if they are exactly the same.
There is Binitarianism which is the belief of two in the Godhead, Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is the power that flows between Father and Son.
Trinitarianism is One God in three divine persons. Each are co-equal, co-exist but are of one being.
Mormonism - Church of latter day saints - belief is three gods in three forms.
Copied from Wiki
Like Trinitarians, Oneness adherents believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. However, whereas Trinitarians believe that "God the Son", the eternal second person of the Trinity, became man, Oneness adherents hold that the one and only true God—who manifests himself in any way he chooses, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit—became man.
Ah, I see what you mean on the Mormonism part - just three separate gods.
H
hermanodaniel
Guest
What amazes me about people who believe the trinity is they make a claim that God is One and yet the emphasis is clearly on three - hence the term trinity.
The origins of trinity doctrine are linked back to Catholicism - and protestants the world over try to claim God is One and yet they don't really get it, that's why they are so against the belief that One God can be manifested in three ways without it being three separate distinct persons. They cannot see that God is an eternal being out of which came forth a logos Son in spirit form who was made flesh. He was Melchizedek who ate with Abraham, He was the Captain of the Lord of Hosts who appeared before Joshua, He was the fourth man in the fire with the Hebrew children. He is Jesus Christ.
How is it difficult to believe that God is triune when we ourselves are triune beings possessing Body, Soul and Spirit? Weren't we made after God's image? The trinity is actually not something foreign since the OT and the NT have two words for the word "one" One meaning is absolute one and the other refers to a compound unity where more than one member are considered to be one. In Hebrew you have yacheed meaning absolute one and "echad" which means compound unity. Echad is used when Adam and Eve became one flesh, when soldiers are refer as one army and amazingly it is used in Deuteronomy 6:4 where God is stated to be one. Why would echad be used here if Moses had the word yacheed in the Hebrew vocabulary available for him to use if God indeed was absolute one? The answer because God is triune and thus why we read Let us make man in our image in Genesis.
The origins of trinity doctrine are linked back to Catholicism - and protestants the world over try to claim God is One and yet they don't really get it, that's why they are so against the belief that One God can be manifested in three ways without it being three separate distinct persons. They cannot see that God is an eternal being out of which came forth a logos Son in spirit form who was made flesh. He was Melchizedek who ate with Abraham, He was the Captain of the Lord of Hosts who appeared before Joshua, He was the fourth man in the fire with the Hebrew children. He is Jesus Christ.
How is it difficult to believe that God is triune when we ourselves are triune beings possessing Body, Soul and Spirit? Weren't we made after God's image? The trinity is actually not something foreign since the OT and the NT have two words for the word "one" One meaning is absolute one and the other refers to a compound unity where more than one member are considered to be one. In Hebrew you have yacheed meaning absolute one and "echad" which means compound unity. Echad is used when Adam and Eve became one flesh, when soldiers are refer as one army and amazingly it is used in Deuteronomy 6:4 where God is stated to be one. Why would echad be used here if Moses had the word yacheed in the Hebrew vocabulary available for him to use if God indeed was absolute one? The answer because God is triune and thus why we read Let us make man in our image in Genesis.
H
hermanodaniel
Guest
You get a bucket and fill it with ocean water, that water is part of the ocean, it is made up of all the same chemicals, it is simply in another vessel. The vessel cannot contain the whole ocean therefore it cannot be called the Ocean.
Here's a perfect example of using logic and reasoning to defend oneness theology.
But the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Meaning it pleased the Father - eternal being - to dwell in Him.
Again, Jesus is the Word of God the expressed image of the Father so of course the fulness of the Godhead dewlls in Him.
As for people throwing around the word heresy like they have the right interpretation of the Godhead, they remind me of Pharisees. If you were humble, you'd be less likely to use that term regardless of whether you feel you have the right interpretation or not. All you really have is an interpretation - just like everyone else - and you are basically calling anyone who disagrees with your interpretation an heretic. If that's not arrogance for a 'correct revelation of the Godhead' of which, I'm assuming, you believe you got from God, then I wonder what great works you did to get it, seeing as it cannot be God's grace that revealed it to you, humble that you are. You're entitled to your opinion, however, be mindful of those who are also entitled to theirs and to disagree with you.
And by all means, call black black and white white and heresy heresy if you feel you have the complete Truth of every single scripture. Otherwise you could be a heretic yourself.
The flesh gives birth to flesh the spirit give births to spirit. The flesh cannot submit to God thus it is in no position to receive anything from God. Everything we receive is from heaven (John 3:27) When the deep things of God are presented to a man after the flesh who has not submitted to the Spirit and the witness of God he finds them foolish or does not comprehend (John 3 the entire chapter cf. 1 Corinthians 2) Heresy my friend can be discern no one is left hoping their interpretation of the Godhead is right because God confirms it by the Spirit otherwise how can God teach anyone?
(John 6:45) Lies are lies and God has mercy on those who seek for truth and cry out for understanding. God stated in the Word of God that heresy is a work of the flesh meaning that self-willed opinions that puff up one's intellect over the truth will be condemned by God. I don't say this to be prideful I say this because no one can take the truth of the Godhead lightly. Deep down inside God knows the thoughts of the heart and when we are choosing to exalt a lie over the truth.
And you have yet to explain 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 one of the biggest problems with oneness since these verses indicates the Son submitting to the Father and logic and reasoning won't help here since the Son does not submit to Himself just as the Word of God does not return to itself, it returns to whom spoke it.
Blessings in the love of Christ,
Here's a perfect example of using logic and reasoning to defend oneness theology.
But the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Meaning it pleased the Father - eternal being - to dwell in Him.
Again, Jesus is the Word of God the expressed image of the Father so of course the fulness of the Godhead dewlls in Him.
As for people throwing around the word heresy like they have the right interpretation of the Godhead, they remind me of Pharisees. If you were humble, you'd be less likely to use that term regardless of whether you feel you have the right interpretation or not. All you really have is an interpretation - just like everyone else - and you are basically calling anyone who disagrees with your interpretation an heretic. If that's not arrogance for a 'correct revelation of the Godhead' of which, I'm assuming, you believe you got from God, then I wonder what great works you did to get it, seeing as it cannot be God's grace that revealed it to you, humble that you are. You're entitled to your opinion, however, be mindful of those who are also entitled to theirs and to disagree with you.
And by all means, call black black and white white and heresy heresy if you feel you have the complete Truth of every single scripture. Otherwise you could be a heretic yourself.
The flesh gives birth to flesh the spirit give births to spirit. The flesh cannot submit to God thus it is in no position to receive anything from God. Everything we receive is from heaven (John 3:27) When the deep things of God are presented to a man after the flesh who has not submitted to the Spirit and the witness of God he finds them foolish or does not comprehend (John 3 the entire chapter cf. 1 Corinthians 2) Heresy my friend can be discern no one is left hoping their interpretation of the Godhead is right because God confirms it by the Spirit otherwise how can God teach anyone?
(John 6:45) Lies are lies and God has mercy on those who seek for truth and cry out for understanding. God stated in the Word of God that heresy is a work of the flesh meaning that self-willed opinions that puff up one's intellect over the truth will be condemned by God. I don't say this to be prideful I say this because no one can take the truth of the Godhead lightly. Deep down inside God knows the thoughts of the heart and when we are choosing to exalt a lie over the truth.
And you have yet to explain 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 one of the biggest problems with oneness since these verses indicates the Son submitting to the Father and logic and reasoning won't help here since the Son does not submit to Himself just as the Word of God does not return to itself, it returns to whom spoke it.
Blessings in the love of Christ,
B
Bea22
Guest
Let us put an end to all this 'heresy' then and since I asked a question first, I will give you the opportunity to respond first.
I asked, if you saw the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in their three distinct persons, at whose feet will you bow down to worship and why?
Tribesman, and anyone else, feel free to answer as honestly as you know how to. Do not be a coward when it comes to claiming your beliefs of what is lies and what is not.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
If heresy is heresy, it's heresy.
God.
Oh, I see, one of those "prove yourself!" moments.
B
Bea22
Guest
Oh Jimmy, speak up now is your chance. You put that lovely illustration up and in another thread told me that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit could potentially sit at a round table together.
So now you cannot answer which of these at the round table you would bow down to?
I thought so.