Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?
- Thread starter Blik
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Now let me ask you some questions.
Did Jesus Christ the Son of God supply everything we need to know to approach the throne of God in faith and receive the free gift of salvation through faith? Did Jesus tell us everything we need to know about how to be children of God?
Did Paul add anything at all essential to the fundamental truths that Jesus already mentioned?
Yes but he clearly had more to say through his prophets and Apostles.
Paul said some things just from himself but most were what Christ taught him.
We need to learn from and study and believe all scripture.
Please, may I answer what I feel is God's way.
Paul explains Christ and is truth, but we are followers of Christ so we must always check those truths with what Christ tells us.
As an example there are people who do a superficial study of Paul who say Paul was against the laws of the Lord.
So you think Jesus didn’t complete mission before being crucified and that the God of creation needed Paul to finish the job, otherwise we wouldn’t have a complete message from God?
Why do you approach this issue this way?
Only a Neophyte would say Paul.
Christ is supreme in all places...why not the proper answer here...without question?
I agree. What I think Paul meant was that the law of God is good but it isn’t for the gentiles, who he was an apostle to. Telling them instead to obey the law of Christ which is to love God and your neighbor. While the law of Moses seems to have been eliminated in concept, it is effectually still active due to the law of Christ.
The idea being if you love God and your neighbor then you’ll obey God’s moral and ethical laws - hocus pocus the Law of Moses, especially the 10 Commandments are still in effect up until the present day through necessity of the law of Christ.
Long story short, the moral and ethical laws are still in effect while the rigid laws of organized religion are removed. A big difference now is that there is no need for continual animal sacrifices, a temple, or a priesthood. Much of it has been spiritualized through Christ.
Now back to Paul. Do you think he introduced some organized religion? If yes, why did he do that?
I don't believe that God speaks with one voice to gentiles and another to Jews. God is simply truth.
God created a race to listen to Him and show the world who he was, but anyone who would join the Jews was welcome. God's eyes and thoughts are only on man as a whole to belong to Him. He communicated with man at first through the flesh, but when God became Christ he communicated through the holy spirit and we are not to use the fleshly commands.
I think it is wrong for us to try to divide the truths of the Lord into Jewish truths and gentile truths, saying they are different. Truth is truth.
I agree with that, but God doesn’t force covenants on people. What I mean is they the Jewish people were bound to a covenant they agreed to. The gentiles didn’t agree to any such covenants with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and therefore weren’t under the same laws as the Jews.
The way gentiles are brought under the law without actually calling it “the law” is by bringing them in through Christ to obey the law of love.
I also might add to this, the 1st and 2nd greatest commandments are entirely subjective now.
Loving God with all your strength isn’t the same when you’re living in the lap of luxury and aren’t struggling for anything as when you’re broken and going without. Some days all of your strength might be straining out a barely audible “thank you God” while barely hanging on to the will to live by a thread.
Loving your neighbor as yourself changes depending on how much you love yourself, if at all. Ironically, the New Testament teaches people to not love themselves and to not love their life. This isn’t an accident, the ultimate conclusion is that only God will be able to judge your service to Him because the written, codified, law of ink and paper has been removed and replaced by a subjective law of love that God seems to judge using a measuring device that only He can se: the human heart.
Rather than singling out which specific law was broken, people are judged whether they loved others as themselves and used the most of their strength to love God.
Jesus accomplished what he was supposed to and Paul accomplished what he was supposed to. For who thinks Paul is a true Apostle, you sure seem to oppose him a lot.
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 34, 36 KJV
When the apostles received the spirit they began to operate this role
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
John 16:13-14
so Paul was taking from what Jesus preached and making it more understood Tom people who had believed the gospel
“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:15-18 KJV
“If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”
I agree there aren’t contradictions at all between Jesus and any of his apostles Jesus was speaking the gospel d they were preaching it to the world making it more plain and explaining things from it ( taking from his and making it known )
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”
2 John 1:9 KJV
I think that the covenant was for all people, gentiles were to be shown the true God, God wanted them to leave their idols and come to him--all people.
It was the belief of the nations that they each had their personal God, those gods were not the truth but idols. When gentiles accepted the true God, they usually accepted the nation of Israel as Ruth shows us.
When God gave the law in stone, and when God communicated with man through fleshly illustrations or commands to lead them to the law it was for all men who would listen. When the law was put in hearts and all received the holy spirit, it wasn't a jew/gentile thing. It was the truth.
For someone who seems to prefer Paul more than Christ you seem to be anti-Christ. That’s the sort of responses you attract when you continually level accusations. Accusations come right back upon you.
You completely deflected and didn’t answer the question. Let me ask it again for you:
So you think Jesus didn’t complete mission before being crucified and that the God of creation needed Paul to finish the job, otherwise we wouldn’t have a complete message from God?
Maybe eventually the gentiles were going to get some attention at some point down the line, but not immediately or even for a long time unless they were proselytized.
From the perspective of each individual nation, their god is the true god. The only thing that was convincing for gentiles was signs and miracles.
Not really at first. There was some pretty strict qualifications for being a gentile Jewish proselyte. If a gentile didn't meet the qualifications to be a Jewish convert then too bad they weren't welcome into the Lord's congregation under any circumstances. Look at Deuteronomy 23 for example.
This is looking at events from the point of view of the flesh, not from how God looks at the same thing.
God is no respector of persons, God blessed the Jew--not because they were Jewish--God blessed them for the work he gave them to do. Proverbs 28: 21 "To have respect of persons is not good. "
God does not look at man as Jewish or gentile except to give thanks to Jews for what he had given them to do. After Christ, many gentiles accepted God, that is what God sees.
Because so many proselytes went back to their pagan ways and took the Jewish friends they had made with them, the Jews made 18 laws the proselytes had to follow. We read about it in Acts and learn what the Christian church did about it.
No this is not looking at events from the point of view of the flesh. I just quoted the word of God to you, Deuteronomy 23, how is that a fleshly perspective?
if you believe the truth of Trinity , you will see God the Father gave the Law to Moses. when Jesus talks, he is very specific about what He says and separately what His Father said.
if you take off the judeaizer glasses, you will see this.