Is Open Theism Heresy?

[posthuman]

But if you had the power to make a child that you knew would not die or a child that you knew would die, and you chose to make the one that you knew would die, you both foreknew and predetermined that that child would die. The only reason your foreknowing of some events is not causal, is because you did not predetermine the actual causes of those events. However, if you planned to have a child for the express purpose of shedding its blood at age three, your foreknowledge would be causal in that case.

Under your theory, you are not analysing the causal power of the foreknowledge of someone who foreknows only some things they knew would happen but did not want to happen. You are analysing the power of the foreknowledge of someone who, you say, foreknew all events and initiated the advance of all those foreknown event intentionally, when they could have initiated some other sequence of events and not initiated this particular sequence. You cannot divorce causality from putting into action a sequence of events that was exhaustively foreknown before being initiated. Your analogy is not comparable to exhastive divine foreknowledge IMHO.

so you only have two conclusions possible in your belief system:

God either is not the Creator, or God is the author of sin, therefore God is evil.

neither are consistent with scripture.

 

[GWH]

I would agree God does know the context of non-existence. But for God Himself not to exist or have the power to speak himself into Non-existence doesn't seem like he would do that. But could God do it? I don't know, that is out of my pay grade, LOL.

None of us know a lot of things discussed on CC,
but I don't know why you are reluctant to acknowledge that saying such is absurd.
Has God not graced you with the gift of logic?

 

[CS1]

None of us know a lot of things discussed on CC,
but I don't know why you are reluctant to acknowledge that saying such is absurd.
Has God not graced you with the gift of logic?

Well, let me say it this way: Would you offer me some grace on the topic?

We can not say anything about God outside of HIS written word. Where the Word of God is Silent on a topic, we should also remain silent. Because Truth should be our only Motivation when speaking of the Living God.

To say "God can't" and not show it biblically is an error. God can not Lie.
Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18

God can not sin. James 1:13

I would agree from what I see in the word of God for God not to exist or in the future is unbiblical Because HE is the Eternal God.

Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 41:4, and Romans 1:20

I would not need to speak about absurdities when the Word of God has already.

 

[CS1]

Well, let me say it this way: Would you offer me some grace on the topic?

We can not say anything about God outside of HIS written word. Where the Word of God is Silent on a topic, we should also remain silent. Because Truth should be our only Motivation when speaking of the Living God.

To say "God can't" and not show it biblically is an error. God can not Lie.
Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18

God can not sin. James 1:13

I would agree from what I see in the word of God for God not to exist or in the future is unbiblical Because HE is the Eternal God.

Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 41:4, and Romans 1:20

I would not need to speak about absurdities when the Word of God has already.

Debating absurdities makes one look foolish.

 

[John146]

Revelation 13:8 says foundation of the world, whereas three other verses say before the foundation of the world.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not
written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold
my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

​

Yes, but the question is: When was it decided that the Lamb would be slain?

 

[CS1]

Yes, but the question is: When was it decided that the Lamb would be slain?

before the foundations were laid

 

[Magenta]

Yes, but the question is: When was it decided that the Lamb would be slain?

I would say it was before the foundation of the world... When do you think it was decided that the Lamb would be slain?

 

[John146]

I would say it was before the foundation of the world... When do you think it was decided that the Lamb would be slain?

As the verse states, from the foundation of the world.

 

[Magenta]

As the verse states, from the foundation of the world.

The purpose was eternal. See Ephesians chapter 3 verse 11.

 

[Magenta]

As the verse states, from the foundation of the world.

See also second Timothy 1 verse 9.

First Corinthians chapter 2 verse 7 also speaks of before time began.

I would look at Hebrews 13:20 also if I were you...

 

[GWH]

Well, let me say it this way: Would you offer me some grace on the topic?

We can not say anything about God outside of HIS written word. Where the Word of God is Silent on a topic, we should also remain silent. Because Truth should be our only Motivation when speaking of the Living God.

To say "God can't" and not show it biblically is an error. God can not Lie.
Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18

God can not sin. James 1:13

I would agree from what I see in the word of God for God not to exist or in the future is unbiblical Because HE is the Eternal God.

Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 41:4, and Romans 1:20

I would not need to speak about absurdities when the Word of God has already.

Sure, here is my grace (which I credit to God):

God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per HB 9:27)–called His permissive will.

Divine omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (PS 94:11, MT 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated, which contradicts Scripture teaching that sinners are accountable and damnable. (I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish.)

When GW does not address a topic, we must use our God-given gift of logic, praying that we are guided by the
Spirit of Truth. (I believe every normal adult has some reasoning ability, hopefully at least the amount called common sense.)
To say both God can and cannot do something is problematic without Scriptural support, and I am glad you finally agree that Scripture does not support saying that God can do the absurd.

Biblical passages that seem to support the view that human logic is a divine gift include the following:
1. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. (IS 1:18a)
2. “They hated me without reason.” (JN 15:25)
3. “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.” (ACTS 17:17)
4. “We do, however, speak a message of wisdom [right reasoning] among the mature…” (1CR 2:6)
5. “When I was a child… I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1CR 13:11)
6. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1PT 3:15b)

 

[CS1]

Sure, here is my grace (which I credit to God):

God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per HB 9:27)–called His permissive will.

Divine omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (PS 94:11, MT 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated, which contradicts Scripture teaching that sinners are accountable and damnable. (I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish.)

When GW does not address a topic, we must use our God-given gift of logic, praying that we are guided by the
Spirit of Truth. (I believe every normal adult has some reasoning ability, hopefully at least the amount called common sense.)
To say both God can and cannot do something is problematic without Scriptural support, and I am glad you finally agree that Scripture does not support saying that God can do the absurd.

Biblical passages that seem to support the view that human logic is a divine gift include the following:
1. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. (IS 1:18a)
2. “They hated me without reason.” (JN 15:25)
3. “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.” (ACTS 17:17)
4. “We do, however, speak a message of wisdom [right reasoning] among the mature…” (1CR 2:6)
5. “When I was a child… I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1CR 13:11)
6. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1PT 3:15b)

so, you responded to my post with a long thread to say what I said in one paragraph. Why? The God-given Gift of logic? Do you mean His word?

 

[GWH]

so, you responded to my post with a long thread to say what I said in one paragraph. Why? The God-given Gift of logic? Do you mean His word?

Sorry, but I have studied these things for fifty years and so I let what I have learned shine,
but should not have dumped the whole load at once.

Logic is reasoning ability that enables folks to understand GW.

 

[John146]

See also second Timothy 1 verse 9.

First Corinthians chapter 2 verse 7 also speaks of before time began.

I would look at Hebrews 13:20 also if I were you...

All of those passages point to the blessings and purpose found in Christ. Nothing about him being slain. That plan was put in action from the foundation of the world (world as in the realm of lost man).

 

[Magenta]

All of those passages point to the blessings and purpose found in Christ. Nothing about him being slain. That plan was put in action from the foundation of the world (world as in the realm of lost man).

Oy. I suppose you are going to try to tell me all those blessings and purpose
found in Christ have zero to do with our faith in His shed righteous blood.

 

[John146]

Oy. I suppose you are going to try to tell me all those blessings and purpose
found in Christ have zero to do with our faith in His shed righteous blood.

Trusting in his blood is how sinful man can be partakes of those blessings.

 

[posthuman]

Trusting in his blood is how sinful man can be partakes of those blessings.

... which is not plan B for God...

so when the scripture says these things were ordained before the beginning of the world, and that they find their expression in us through the Lamb slain 'from' the foundation, the clear scripture informs us of what may be unclear about the word 'from' - - Christ gave His life for us before He created the world. indicating He knew that with our free will, we would sin, that He knew also us and that He did not create haphazardly without knowing what it was He was creating.

He made us, purposefully and consciously; masterfully.

that knowledge of our failures before He created us is neither authorship of sin nor causation of sin.

 

[posthuman]

But if you had the power to make a child that you knew would not die or a child that you knew would die, and you chose to make the one that you knew would die, you both foreknew and predetermined that that child would die. The only reason your foreknowing of some events is not causal, is because you did not predetermine the actual causes of those events. However, if you planned to have a child for the express purpose of shedding its blood at age three, your foreknowledge would be causal in that case.

Under your theory, you are not analysing the causal power of the foreknowledge of someone who foreknows only some things they knew would happen but did not want to happen. You are analysing the power of the foreknowledge of someone who, you say, foreknew all events and initiated the advance of all those foreknown event intentionally, when they could have initiated some other sequence of events and not initiated this particular sequence. You cannot divorce causality from putting into action a sequence of events that was exhaustively foreknown before being initiated. Your analogy is not comparable to exhastive divine foreknowledge IMHO.

have you not read,

Galatians 3:22​

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.​

​

will you judge God over this?
according to you - that is, according to open theism, if you really represent it - this makes God the author of sin. but not according to scripture.

have we answered the question of the thread topic then? is open theism heresy?
if it is indeed what you are arguing, then definitively, yes.

 

[PaulThomson]

so you only have two conclusions possible in your belief system:

God either is not the Creator, or God is the author of sin, therefore God is evil.

neither are consistent with scripture.

Under Open Theism, God is the Creator. And God is not the author of sin. And both are consistent with scripture.

You would need to show the logical steps that get you from from the premises of Open Theism to the conclusions of them that you allege are the only ones possible.

You, on the other hand, are arguing illogically for your view.

You are arguing that because foreknowledge of the consequences of one's action is not causal in one case (i.e. having a baby knowing it will die), exhaustive foreknowledge cannot be causal in any cases. That is the logical fallacy of hasty generalisation.

 

[posthuman]

Under Open Theism, God is the Creator. And God is not the author of sin. And both are consistent with scripture.

You would need to show the logical steps that get you from from the premises of Open Theism to the conclusions of them that you allege are the only ones possible.

You, on the other hand, are arguing illogically for your view.

You are arguing that because foreknowledge of the consequences of one's action is not causal in one case (i.e. having a baby knowing it will die), exhaustive foreknowledge cannot be causal in any cases. That is the logical fallacy of hasty generalisation.

no, it is the same. your argument is that if God knew beforehand angels or men would sin by being given free agency, yet created them anyway, then God authored sin - and is therefore evil. therefore you suppose God is ignorant of His own handiwork and that Satan outwitted Him by fathering sin. that is a general argument about knowledge being equivalent to causation, not specific to God alone - - but you contradict your own logic saying that any person who purposefully has a child, knowing it will die, is not guilty of its death. in that you are correct! but you wave your hands in the air saying, this is a totally different thing, though we are His children and He appointed to us all once to die.

nevertheless scripture clearly says Christ dies before creation - that His plan of salvation is from the beginning, that He purposefully concludes all under sin in order that by faith in Christ He is glorified, that life in Him is salvation by mercy, not by the will, effort, works or intention of man, that it be in Him and Him alone all glory resides.

the open theism worldview is contrary to scripture, claiming God reactively, on His heels against Satan's unexpected mortal blow, sent His Son. Scripture is abundantly clear that the LORD from the foundation int ended these things, but you say that makes Him evil if He did so, which is patently blasphemous.

and why?
because you consider your human agency sacrosanct and inviolable, that even God cannot tell you what you should do, or number your days.

open theism is humanism. it is not historical Christianity, not the faith passed to us from our forebears.