Is Open Theism Heresy?

[PaulThomson]

this is simply false.

logic is in fact the purview of Christianity, which supplanted such things as the worship of rocks and stars, human will and merely physical processes, the later two of which don't seem to have yet been supplanted in your own thinking.

Logic is, in fact, the purview of God. Which is why supporting one's opinions in ways that contradict logic fails to persuade those who understand logic and logical fallacies.

 

[GWH]

2 Samuel 6:22​

And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. ​

Yes, but Michal did not mean nude when she described David as "disrobing in the sight of slave girls", because 6:14 said he danced while "wearing a linen ephod".

(PG rather than X-rated :^)

 

[CS1]

Bi-TeReM (in - before) 'eTsaRK (Qal imperfect: I was fashioning you) Ba-BeTeN (in - the belly) YiDaTsThiYK (Qal perfect:I knew - you) U-Be-TeReM (and-in-before) TheTseH (Qal imperfect: you were leaving) Be-ReKheM (inside the womb) HiQDaShTh-iYK (Qal perfect: I set you apart). NiThaTh-iYk (Qal perfect: I ordained-you) NaThiy": a prophet) La-GoYiM (to the-nations).So, a random sperm and ovum merge in the fallopian tube and the zygote descends and implants in the uterine wall. God knows at the time the particular sperm and egg combine what information the DNA contains, and chooses this as a good gene content for a prophet He wants to speak to the nations. Then He supplies the life and the oversight needed for the process of building/forming the child.

So, yes, God knew Isaiah intimately and genetically in detail as a zygote before he was fashioning the zygote into a baby delivered nine month later. There is nothing here that screams that God knew from eternity past that Isaiah specifically would be born a prophet to the nations.



16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
and in (V-'aL) your-book (SiFR-Ka) all-for me (KeL-aM 3rd person masculine plural) they-were being written (YiKaTheB-U: Niphal imperfect 3rd person masculine plural) daily / the days (YaMiYM: common masculine plural)
they-were fashioned (YeTSaR-U: Piel perfect 3rd person common plural) and-not (V-LoV ) one ("eKhaD) from-them (Ba-HeM" : 3rd person masculine plural)

There is some dispute as to the referent for all in "all-for me" and they in "they-were fashioned" and "they-were being fashioned", and the them in "from-them". They all match in gender and number with YaMiYM, so could all refer to days. Some think it refers to the members being formed daily from the unformed substance.

Either way, the imperfect verb they-were being written (YiKaTheB-U: Niphal imperfect 3rd person masculine plural) means that whatever was being written had not already been written, since then the Niphal perfect would be used. The meaning is that as the body was being formed, the days were being written or the members were being recorded.

So neither of these, in any way, imply some exhaustive knowledge of isaiah, or the future from eternity past. 'Hope this helps.

thank you for the exhausted explanation of the of the seventh grade sex education.

Foreknowledge is knowing things or events before they exist or happen. In Greek, the term for “foreknowledge” is prognosis, which expresses the idea of knowing reality before it is real and events before they occur. In Christian theology, foreknowledge refers to the all-knowing, omniscient nature of God whereby He knows reality before it is real, all things and events before they happen, and all people before they exist.


Both Old and New Testaments speak of God’s foreknowledge. Nothing in the future is hidden from God’s eyes (Isaiah 41:23; 42:9; 44:6–8; 46:10). God sees our lives, our bodies, and our days even before we are conceived: “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:15–16).


pretty simple. GOD knows all.

 

[CS1]

God wants a relationship with us where we are free to learn from Him. learning requires making mistakes and discovering that these were mistakes. Learning leads to the realisation that we do not know very much at all, and even what we think we know may be "off" a little or a lot, and may need to be corrected further down the trail.

I have spent a lot of time discussing theology with people who are sure they are right and cannot tolerate challenges to their positions on things, who are happy when they think they have won a point, and are miserable and resentful when they are confronted with ideas that may entail them giving up a confidently held opinion. Some people are so egoically wedded to their opinions, that hey cannot even bring themselves to concede that an alternative view may have any merit whatsoever.

Our conception of what God is like, whether a kind gracious loving patient forgiving Father, or a perfectionist intolerant harsh taskmaster, will determine whether we fear God will strike us down for some theological misstep or let us find out in time that we were mistaken and should adjust our thinking. The God I worship wants reconciliation with rebels so much that They subjected one of their members to humiliation and death at the hands of those rebels, just to show us how much They love us and how terrible we can be when we rely on our instincts and dismiss Their guidance.

this is the false deceptiveness of the human understanding trying to know God without the Foundation of Christ.


"God wants a relationship with us where we are free to learn from Him. learning requires making mistakes and discovering that these were mistakes. Learning leads to the realisation that we do not know very much at all, and even what we think we know may be "off" a little or a lot, and may need to be corrected further down the trail."

Liberal theology with a postmodern spiritual mindset. Christian Theology starts with Christ as the foundational truth which all Doctrine is built from. This opinion above " God wants a relationship ." Could be said about Allah, Baal, moloch, and Dagon.

We are not fee to learn fro God without The Lord Jesus Christ. This is the dammable mindset of the reduction of a God who is Holy and All-knowing. With a false teaching of
Open Theism,

but you know more than God, and he is so impressed with your understanding.

 

[GWH]

thank you for the exhausted explanation of the of the seventh grade sex education.

Foreknowledge is knowing things or events before they exist or happen. In Greek, the term for “foreknowledge” is prognosis, which expresses the idea of knowing reality before it is real and events before they occur. In Christian theology, foreknowledge refers to the all-knowing, omniscient nature of God whereby He knows reality before it is real, all things and events before they happen, and all people before they exist.


Both Old and New Testaments speak of God’s foreknowledge. Nothing in the future is hidden from God’s eyes (Isaiah 41:23; 42:9; 44:6–8; 46:10). God sees our lives, our bodies, and our days even before we are conceived: “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:15–16).


pretty simple. GOD knows all.

…that is knowable.
It is absurd to say that God knows how to make a rock too big for him to move, for example.

 

[PaulThomson]

thank you for the exhausted explanation of the of the seventh grade sex education.

Foreknowledge is knowing things or events before they exist or happen. In Greek, the term for “foreknowledge” is prognosis, which expresses the idea of knowing reality before it is real and events before they occur. In Christian theology, foreknowledge refers to the all-knowing, omniscient nature of God whereby He knows reality before it is real, all things and events before they happen, and all people before they exist.


Both Old and New Testaments speak of God’s foreknowledge. Nothing in the future is hidden from God’s eyes (Isaiah 41:23; 42:9; 44:6–8; 46:10). God sees our lives, our bodies, and our days even before we are conceived: “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:15–16).


pretty simple. GOD knows all.

this is the false deceptiveness of the human understanding trying to know God without the Foundation of Christ.


"God wants a relationship with us where we are free to learn from Him. learning requires making mistakes and discovering that these were mistakes. Learning leads to the realisation that we do not know very much at all, and even what we think we know may be "off" a little or a lot, and may need to be corrected further down the trail."

Liberal theology with a postmodern spiritual mindset. Christian Theology starts with Christ as the foundational truth which all Doctrine is built from. This opinion above " God wants a relationship ." Could be said about Allah, Baal, moloch, and Dagon.

We are not fee to learn fro God without The Lord Jesus Christ. This is the dammable mindset of the reduction of a God who is Holy and All-knowing. With a false teaching of
Open Theism,

but you know more than God, and he is so impressed with your understanding.

I agree. We cannot learn about God without the Lord Jesus Christ's. We need Jesus Christ to enlighten us to gain any insight into God. However, a person may be being helped by Jesus Christ to understabd some truths about God without knowing the name Jesus Christ or realising that Jesus Christ is enlightening their understanding.
John says -

Jhn 1:4 In [the Word] was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:8 [John the Baptist] was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jesus Christ is the life which is the light of men, who lights every man that comes into the world, but the world nevertheless did not recognise Him when He came.

 

[PaulThomson]

but you know more than God

No, I don't.

 

[GWH]

I agree. We cannot learn about God without the Lord Jesus Christ's. We need Jesus Christ to enlighten us to gain any insight into God. However, a person may be being helped by Jesus Christ to understabd some truths about God without knowing the name Jesus Christ or realising that Jesus Christ is enlightening their understanding.
John says -

Jhn 1:4 In [the Word] was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:8 [John the Baptist] was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jesus Christ is the life which is the light of men, who lights every man that comes into the world, but the world nevertheless did not recognise Him when He came.

Yes indeed. Everyone before Christ’s advent and billions before they are evangelized by Christian missionaries.

 

[CS1]

…that is knowable.
It is absurd to say that God knows how to make a rock too big for him to move, for example.

take that up with the one who said, "God knows how to make a rock too big for him to move." I did not.

 

[GWH]

take that up with the one who said, "God knows how to make a rock too big for him to move." I did not.

Sorry. I don’t think my phone shows the sender very clearly.

 

[posthuman]

Arguing logically sound agnostic to some sects within Christendom, because to believe in their God one must jettison logic.

i was mistaken, it is deism, not the most common forms of agnosticism, that you reminded me of.

agnostics aren't sure if there is a god or not.
deists believe there is a god, but that He created the world and then walked away from it, having no further interaction in it.

 

[posthuman]

…that is knowable.
It is absurd to say that God knows how to make a rock too big for him to move, for example.

He knows how to have an indestructible life, and yet die, doesn't He?

 

[Magenta]

i was mistaken, it is deism, not the most common forms of agnosticism, that you reminded me of.

agnostics aren't sure if there is a god or not.
deists believe there is a god, but that He created the world and then walked away from it, having no further interaction in it.

Agnostics go further than saying they don't know... their claim is that nobody can know.

 

[posthuman]

No. I believe the body, mind and spirit operate in a two way fashion. What happens in our mind, the physical body harmonises with.

then your thought doesn't arise in neural activity, but in spirit which causes the physical brain to react.
and for God to know your thoughts beforehand, He knows before a single neuron fires. He knows your thoughts before your soul thinks it.

His foreknowledge cannot logically be as you described it, simply watching and interpreting neural activity nanoseconds ahead of your mouth.

 

[GWH]

Sorry. I don’t think my phone shows the sender very clearly.

After double checking posts on my laptop, my comment "…that is knowable" was meant for completing your saying that "God knows all".

I pointed out that it is absurd to say that God knows "how to make a rock too big for him to move, for example" of a part of "all".

 

[GWH]

He knows how to have an indestructible life, and yet die, doesn't He?

Yes, in the human dimension.
However it would be absurd to posit that God the Father could die or not be God, wouldn't it?

 

[CS1]

Yes, in the human dimension.
However it would be absurd to posit that God the Father could die or not be God, wouldn't it?

FYI, one can die yet still exist. The assumption is if one dies they no longer exist.

 

[GWH]

FYI, one can die yet still exist. The assumption is if one dies they no longer exist.

Well, YOU are the one who used that wording, so I merely replied using the same, but okay,
it would be absurd to say that God knows how to cease to exist, wouldn't it?

 

[PaulThomson]

i was mistaken, it is deism, not the most common forms of agnosticism, that you reminded me of.

agnostics aren't sure if there is a god or not.
deists believe there is a god, but that He created the world and then walked away from it, having no further interaction in it.

Then I am not a deist. God does interact with his creation to keep things on track to some version that will fulfil His goals. But He does not need to control every detail to achieve that.

 

[PaulThomson]

then your thought doesn't arise in neural activity, but in spirit which causes the physical brain to react.
and for God to know your thoughts beforehand, He knows before a single neuron fires. He knows your thoughts before your soul thinks it.

His foreknowledge cannot logically be as you described it, simply watching and interpreting neural activity nanoseconds ahead of your mouth.

Agreed. But the spiritual antecedents of your particular thoughts today were not happening in your spirit from eternity past to be read by God before creation, or during at creation.