Is it wrong to use only LOGIC, not scripture, when arguing theology with an atheist who wants to avoid scripture?
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I don't think it's a matter of wrong but to make an argument from an authority that an atheist doesn't to recognize as authoritative is a waste of time. As an example if a atheist asks you to prove God exists and you refer to the Bible for that proof, to an atheist the Bible isn't an authoritative source so they will likely dismiss any such references out of hand. I prefer to use Aquinas's five proofs of God
J
John1335
Guest
Logic and reason may enter into the mind of a man, it may even find fertile ground there in which to grow, it may not only grow, but produce abundant fruit. And yet, no matter how pleasant to the senses that produce may be, it cannot impart life.
If the Holy and Righteous Law of God apart from revelation by the Spirit of God, brings forth only death,
"..our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"
2 Corinthians 3
then how should we expect to produce the Fruit of Life through vain philosophies.
We are called to preach the Gospel of Christ, as recorded in Gods Holy Word, by the power of His Holy Spirit.
If the Word of God is not producing fruit in our ministries, it is not for a lack of better intellectual arguments.
If the Holy and Righteous Law of God apart from revelation by the Spirit of God, brings forth only death,
"..our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"
2 Corinthians 3
then how should we expect to produce the Fruit of Life through vain philosophies.
We are called to preach the Gospel of Christ, as recorded in Gods Holy Word, by the power of His Holy Spirit.
If the Word of God is not producing fruit in our ministries, it is not for a lack of better intellectual arguments.
I don't get it lol here you are agreeing people are depraved before enlightenment but you rule out perseverance of the saints, I'm sure it means you can not fall away once saved and it's about God's grace preserving your faith
I think you may well of become a back to front tulip
Here are the 16 Scriptures that taught me the P/OSAS is a wrong doctrine:
Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Personally, I find it for more effective, to discuss how flawed atheism is, than trying to argue every scripture reference, that an atheist doesn't agree with. Why bother?
Atheist don't believe the Bible, but they believe in scientific fairy tales and have a pretty bad reputation, when their beliefs/lack of beliefs are implemented in governmental mandates.
Atheist don't believe the Bible, but they believe in scientific fairy tales and have a pretty bad reputation, when their beliefs/lack of beliefs are implemented in governmental mandates.
I am quite comfortable with just using logic when discussing God with an atheist. Paul assures us that everything that can be known about God is available from the creation, so I use creation. Modern science, less than 40 years old and largely unknown, implies that God is not only plausible but probable. I have yet to find an atheist who can make an argument against experimental science without contradicting themselves. One need only really know apologetics.
You decided to not like a person teaching tulip more like it.
Removing eternal salvation is what your doing, in favour of a the letter p, you can't think much of eternal security to do this just over a letter, wow is my immediate thought.
The church i attend teaches persevering in your faith to which applies to all theses scriptures before coming saved and after. There speaking to salvation for the believer and how salvation is assured for the new believer yet to be filled whilst there under the fathers enabling grace.
You can't do this unless you saved. You know you are when you do. This is a assurance..
Again speaking to you and testing you, most probably before your filled with spirit, then afterwards if this is speaking to you when your filled with the spirit can you prove it ?.
Again speaking to people before they where filled with the holy spirit,
Yep The fathers enabling Grace tests the heart.
Yep thing here about loading salvation, it's about persevering in your faith.
yep this speaks of the assurance you can gain through perseverance.
Yes speaking to who are saved and who will be.
Yep faith building and perseverance.
yep speaking to those, where the fathers enabling grace never worked for the individual.
Yep Speaking to Those where the fathers enabling grace did not work in the individual.
No salvation lost here for the believer and salvation to be gained for the unbeliever.
Yep the elect dont fall.
Yep Jesus will chastise his own. But When the fathers enabling grace is active in persons heart do is the lords faith. Until there filled with the spirit.
yep speaking to his disciples, saying you will remain in the father and the son of if you obey, teaching them assurance, speaking to believers before the day of pentecost.
yep The fathers mercy is the same as the son and will show in you at the cross before the cross. And his son will see his father's mercy in you.
Yep assurance you have salvation if you know you stand firm when trails come .
Don't mean to be disrespectful here but I think you may be in a league of atheism.
I have found neither approach to be effective, so I guess I do not have the gift of evangelism.
However, on our website you will notice that I begin philosophically in Lesson 1 and move to theology in the remaining lessons,
beginning with soteriology.
B
Blue155
Guest
I can't speak for everyone, but the questions and answers that a lot of people have in this day of skepticism and of atheism and of agnosticism can be the kind that leads one to grow like never before, because it leads someone into researching, studying and digging for answers. It's like they go on a relentless truth quest, and in the process, they end up growing in the faith. So it's often the difficult answers, the difficult questions, and the difficult times that we go through in life that ends up strengthening our faith. If we never went through something, we're not going to be strong. It's kind of like a muscle. If you never exercise, you're going to be weak. Your muscles aren't going to grow.
If you never work out your faith, then it's going to be stagnant. It's going to be dead, and when questions comes in life or when someone asks you a difficult question about God, about why he did this, why he did that, if they bring up a lot of Old Testament verses, they can be troublesome and challenging for many. If you have a faith that never grew, just remained like a little baby's faith, then you're going to have a problem. You're not going to be able to withstand it, but for those who have developed a strong faith, they expect those questions and the answers, and they're not bothered by them. They're not going to be bothered because their faith is going to be strong, and so it's the difficult times in life that our faith grows, just like it's the difficult times in an exercise session that our muscles grow, and it's the difficult questions and responses that we hear from unbelievers that can, if we allow it, ironically cause our faith to grow because we end up searching and digging, like I said, and we find answers, and we realize that, you know what, I've just gained more confidence and evidence that the Bible is the word of God and that God that does really exist.
If you never work out your faith, then it's going to be stagnant. It's going to be dead, and when questions comes in life or when someone asks you a difficult question about God, about why he did this, why he did that, if they bring up a lot of Old Testament verses, they can be troublesome and challenging for many. If you have a faith that never grew, just remained like a little baby's faith, then you're going to have a problem. You're not going to be able to withstand it, but for those who have developed a strong faith, they expect those questions and the answers, and they're not bothered by them. They're not going to be bothered because their faith is going to be strong, and so it's the difficult times in life that our faith grows, just like it's the difficult times in an exercise session that our muscles grow, and it's the difficult questions and responses that we hear from unbelievers that can, if we allow it, ironically cause our faith to grow because we end up searching and digging, like I said, and we find answers, and we realize that, you know what, I've just gained more confidence and evidence that the Bible is the word of God and that God that does really exist.