Is having faith/belief obeying?

[Cameron143]

Actually, they speak of Paul working by using the energy/capability God provides within Paul. God provides the capability. Paul does the work.



God gave Paul a job to do Col1:25
Paul was doing that job that had a goal Col1:28
Paul working to achieve that goal exerted himself to weariness by fighting with God's energy that God energized in Paul in power/powerfully Col1:29

Both Phil2:12-13 and this section of Col have the same concept - God commands > the Christian obeys (Faith-Obedience) <> God is supplying the energy/capability for the obedient Christian to do the commanded work (Faith-Obedience-Good Works). God and His Faithfully Obedient Children working cooperatively together.

That's not what the verses say at all. God isn't making His power available to the will of Paul. Instead, God is demonstrating His power through Paul. In other words, Paul isn't endued with power that he exercises; God is the one wielding the power. Look again at 2 Corinthians 12...that Christ's power may rest on me.

You conveniently left this out when copying my post. In the future, please quote my entire post.

 

[Believer08]

2 Peter 3:18 says to grow in grace and knowledge, which compliments Phil. 2:12-13.

 

[Believer08]

Living a godly lifestyle is not making it about your “works” or your “obedience”. It's trusting in Christ’s work by making it about Him by being conformed to His image (Rom. 8:29).

If one believes it does not matter how you live as a Christian, or that it does not affect one’s salvation, then please read Mt. 25:35ff; Gal. 5:3-4, 19-21, Rom. 6:1, 6:12ff; Jude 1:4; 2 Peter 2; 1 Jn 1:6, 1 Jn 3; the book of Hebrews; 1 Tim. 5:12; Heb. 5:9; Titus 2:11-12; Col. 1:10, 3:5-9; Eph. 4:1 and 5; 1 Thess. 2:12; 2 Thess. 3:6

 

[Blade]

Am I addressing the OP or Sproule? Apostleship came to Paul through grace "obedience to the faith" refers not to doctrine or belief but belief itself. Grace come before apostleship, salvation before service commitment to the truth come before commitment to the task.

So are we saying that were saved by faith plus obedience. I think some would say if your not doing this "obedience" your not saved. I do not see obedience being a condition for salvation. I am saved by grace through faith. Now I do see obedience does come from faith. Hm a consequence of being saved? I do see a word that some might use "legalism". When He found me was I from that moment on in love with Him thus "obedience"? No. It came after.

 

[mailmandan]

Sorry, but no. I'll assume my question was not asked with sufficient clarity and regroup. And I do appreciate your answering before.

Jesus is the Christ/Anointed/Mashiach. What is the Christ?

Hopefully this is clear enough. If not, please explain "Christ" from Psalm2 as Paul referenced.

Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

What are you looking for?

 

[GWH]

Am I addressing the OP or Sproule? Apostleship came to Paul through grace "obedience to the faith" refers not to doctrine or belief but belief itself. Grace come before apostleship, salvation before service commitment to the truth come before commitment to the task.

So are we saying that were saved by faith plus obedience. I think some would say if your not doing this "obedience" your not saved. I do not see obedience being a condition for salvation. I am saved by grace through faith. Now I do see obedience does come from faith. Hm a consequence of being saved? I do see a word that some might use "legalism". When He found me was I from that moment on in love with Him thus "obedience"? No. It came after.

Yes, I hope we are agreeing that we are saved by grace through faith that manifests/produces loving fruit = good works.

 

[studier]

God isn't making His power available to the will of Paul

God is providing capability in Christians for them to both will and work on behalf of God's good pleasure Phil2:13. This is very clear.

The idea of capacity therefore seems odd to me. We don't gain capacity because the power exists outside ourselves

Yet you previous referenced Scripture re: Christ IN us. And Phil2:13 speaks of God providing capability IN us to will which is internal.

Be advised, I am not reading all of your posts when they begin with error(s). I'll just respond to the foundational error re: the Scripture under discussion.

Now that you've made a case about 2Cor12:9, firstly, please also be advised that I will not chase down Scripture you do not reference completely, let alone do not cooperatively paste the entire verse to make this easier. Next, I would hope you're learned enough to know that referencing 2Cor12:9 to argue against the clear language of Phil2:12-13 and Col1:29 is not an appropriate method of interpretation or argumentation especially since we were discussing a specific word in Phil2 and Col1 which is not used in 2Cor12:9. So why would we consider 2Cor12 to be comparable?

In Phil2 and Col1 Paul is talking about God providing His capability IN a Christian. In 2Cor12 Paul is talking about Christ's power resting upon him. One does not negate the other.

 

[studier]

Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

What are you looking for?

Please, what do you see? I've underlined where "Christ/Anointed/Mashiach" is in the Psalm and how Paul drew us to this Psalm - let alone specifying the specific Psalm by number which is not a usual practice. What do we learn about YHWH's Christ in this Psalm? Why did Paul reference it in his evangelism?

 

[mailmandan]

Please, what do you see? I've underlined where "Christ/Anointed/Mashiach" is in the Psalm and how Paul drew us to this Psalm - let alone specifying the specific Psalm by number which is not a usual practice. What do we learn about YHWH's Christ in this Psalm? Why did Paul reference it in his evangelism?

Jesus is God's only begotten (unique, one of a kind) Son of God.

 

[studier]

Jesus is God's only begotten (unique, one of a kind) Son of God.

Have you studied under RBThieme?

 

[Cameron143]

God is providing capability in Christians for them to both will and work on behalf of God's good pleasure Phil2:13. This is very clear.



Yet you previous referenced Scripture re: Christ IN us. And Phil2:13 speaks of God providing capability IN us to will which is internal.

Be advised, I am not reading all of your posts when they begin with error(s). I'll just respond to the foundational error re: the Scripture under discussion.

Now that you've made a case about 2Cor12:9, firstly, please also be advised that I will not chase down Scripture you do not reference completely, let alone do not cooperatively paste the entire verse to make this easier. Next, I would hope you're learned enough to know that referencing 2Cor12:9 to argue against the clear language of Phil2:12-13 and Col1:29 is not an appropriate method of interpretation or argumentation especially since we were discussing a specific word in Phil2 and Col1 which is not used in 2Cor12:9. So why would we consider 2Cor12 to be comparable?

In Phil2 and Col1 Paul is talking about God providing His capability IN a Christian. In 2Cor12 Paul is talking about Christ's power resting upon him. One does not negate the other.

You have butchered Philippians 2:13. The verse says it is God who is willing and doing of His good pleasure. Nowhere in the verse does it say God is empowering believers to do so. Not only that, the work God is doing is not outward, but inward...at work in you...So this isn't an empowerment to do works, but is actually how God works to produce fruit in an individual. This is how love, joy, peace, etc. are birthed in us. Or do you believe we produce them as well?

Honestly, I've never experienced anyone who has obliterated the plain meaning of the verse in all my life. Which part of the verse has man doing anything? I only see God both willing and doing in the verse.

 

[mailmandan]

Have you studied under RBThieme?

No. Feel free to make your point about Psalm 2.

 

[studier]

You have butchered Philippians 2:13. The verse says it is God who is willing and doing of His good pleasure. Nowhere in the verse does it say God is empowering believers to do so. Not only that, the work God is doing is not outward, but inward...at work in you...So this isn't an empowerment to do works, but is actually how God works to produce fruit in an individual. This is how love, joy, peace, etc. are birthed in us. Or do you believe we produce them as well?

Honestly, I've never experienced anyone who has obliterated the plain meaning of the verse in all my life. Which part of the verse has man doing anything? I only see God both willing and doing in the verse.

OK. Please let these translation teams know, especially the NET and NLT teams who attempted to provide some clarity to the wrong concept:

DBY Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both the willing and the working according to his good pleasure.

NKJ Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

NET Philippians 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort – for the sake of his good pleasure – is God.

ESV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

NAS Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

KJV Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

NIV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

NLT Philippians 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

YLT Philippians 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

I'll notify a couple men who devoted years to develop diagrams of the grammatical structures of the NC Text that Cameron says we all need to correct our errors.

Thanks, Cameron.

 

[studier]

No. Feel free to make your point about Psalm 2.

Thanks. Will have to be tomorrow.

 

[Believer08]

@studier, same for the ones who went into translated John 6:29 to provide helpful understanding on how believing is something we are required to do. That would mean believing is obeying (Jn. 3:36).

NIV (New International Version): Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

RSV (Revised Standard Version) : Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

ESV (English Standard Version): Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

AMP (Amplified Bible): Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?”

ISV (International Standard Version): Then they asked him, “What must we do to perform God’s works?”

MNT (Montgomery New Testament): What are we to do habitually," they asked him, "that we may keep working the words of God?"

Goodspeed (Goodspeed New Testament) Jesus answered them, "The work God has for you is to believe in the messenger that he has sent to you."

LONT (Living Oracles New Testament): They asked him, therefore, What are the works which God requires us to do?

Williams (Williams New Testament): Then they asked Him, "What must we do to perform the works that God demands?

WNT (Weymouth New Testament) What are we to do," they asked, "in order to carry out the things that God requires?

JMNT (Jonathan Mitchell New Testament): Then they said to Him, "What should we be habitually doing, so that we would be habitually working God’s works (or: actions having the character of God; or: the deeds which have their source in God; or: = the things God wants us to do)?"

BSB (Berean Study Bible): Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”

MSB (Majority Study Bible): Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”

VIN (Venerably Illuminating Narrative: Then they asked him, "What must we do to perform the works of God?"

NLT (New Living Translation): They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”

NET (New English Translation): Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."

BBE (Bible in Basic English): Then they said to him, How may we do the works of God?

NASB20 (New American Standard Bible): Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?

 

[Cameron143]

OK. Please let these translation teams know, especially the NET and NLT teams who attempted to provide some clarity to the wrong concept:

DBY Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both the willing and the working according to his good pleasure.

NKJ Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

NET Philippians 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort – for the sake of his good pleasure – is God.

ESV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

NAS Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

KJV Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

NIV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

NLT Philippians 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

YLT Philippians 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

I'll notify a couple men who devoted years to develop diagrams of the grammatical structures of the NC Text that Cameron says we all need to correct our errors.

Thanks, Cameron.

Every single reference has God exercising His power. Absolutely 0 of them have man exercising God's power. Every one has God wielding the power.

 

[Inquisitor]

Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

What are you looking for?

12 Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

The Greek, "pistis', means, trust, belief, faith.

Saved by grace through that trust in Jesus and that is not from us.

 

[GWH]

Every single reference has God exercising His power. Absolutely 0 of them have man exercising God's power. Every one has God wielding the power.

Every one has God initiating/wielding; souls cooperating/coworking--or not.

 

[studier]

Every single reference has God exercising His power. Absolutely 0 of them have man exercising God's power. Every one has God wielding the power.

The verse is explaining 2:12. Who's commanded to do the work?

 

[mailmandan]

12 Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

The Greek, "pistis', means, trust, belief, faith.

Saved by grace through that trust in Jesus and that is not from us.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.