Interpreting I John 2:18,19

[Chester]

Yeah, I typed 23 instead of 24.......goodness.......hang me from the tallest tree.....however, your interpretation is YOUR interpretation, and that does not make it Gospel Truth, just your interpretation.

Same with Thessalonians.....your interpretation....and, you are entitled to understand it as you understand it, but that DOES NOT make it Biblical Truth.

Nor does mine........however, I will hold to my understanding as I receive it from the Holy Spirit, and you can hold to yours.

I have a tall tree in my yard - show up and I will hang you from it if you wish! LOL!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I'm sure Paul and John did NOT invent it when they argued against it.

They argued against some ideas that, when later, Gnosticism would form and use. Gnosticism came from Christianity, Christianity didn't come from Gnosticism. Do you believe, as the atheists, that Christianity evolved from and parallels pagan religions?

 

[Nehemiah6]

They argued against some ideas that, when later, Gnosticism would form and use. Gnosticism came from Christianity, Christianity didn't come from Gnosticism. Do you believe, as the atheists, that Christianity evolved from and parallels pagan religions?

Gnosticism did NOT come from Christianity. It came from Greek mythology and philosophy, and was traced back to Orpheanism, which would eventually go back to Zoroastrianism [with Ahura Mazda (the god of light) and Ahriman (the god of darkness)]. Orpheanism believed in a dualistic universe and matter was considered evil. This was the root of Docetism.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Gnosticism did NOT come from Christianity. It came from Greek mythology and philosophy, and was traced back to Orpheanism, which would eventually go back to Zoroastrianism [with Ahura Mazda (the god of light) and Ahriman (the god of darkness)]. Orpheanism believed in a dualistic universe and matter was considered evil. This was the root of Docetism.

That was a hodge podge of ideas that Gnosticism used. But fullblown Gnosticism didn't exist until the 2nd cent and came from Christianity with "The Gospel of Truth".

 

[Nehemiah6]

That was a hodge podge of ideas that Gnosticism used. But fullblown Gnosticism didn't exist until the 2nd cent and came from Christianity with "The Gospel of Truth".

That makes no difference. The apostles were addressing the heresies of Gnosticism while they were alive. "Science falsely so called..." = Gnosis falsely so called... And Gnosticism was all about esoteric GNOSIS reserved for the "spiritual elite" (the heretics).

Ὦ Τιμόθεε, τὴν παρακαταθήκην φύλαξον, ἐκτρεπόμενος τὰς βεβήλους κενοφωνίας καὶ ἀντιθέσεις τῆς ψευδωνύμου γνώσεως·

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: (1 Tim 6:20).

 

[p_rehbein]

Too funny.........my comment was about as UN dramatic as it gets...........goodness.......

One mans sound doctrine is another mans heresy. or so they say........I just believe as I am led to believe. I do not count on or need a man/Denomination telling me what to believe or what sound doctrine is.

SOUND DOCTRINE is right there in Scriptures for all to read.....In my Bible it is even WRITTEN IN RED.

My heart is only hardened towards false or faulty teachings/teachers........got no time for 'em........

Not saying you are, just saying.........

As well, you are ONLY posting your interpretation.......unless I did not get the Memo where God appointed you Sound Doctrine Publisher In Charge.........

We all make typos. You could have simply acknowledged such but you went all dramatic. Whatever.

You can deflect sound doctrine with the old that's your interpretation dodge but it does not introduce any credibility to your faulty doctrine.

Blaming the Holy Spirit for the hardness of your heart is not going to prove beneficial.

Seek knowledge get understanding and attain to wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[p_rehbein]

2 Peter 3:18) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18( But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

(another example)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

That makes no difference. The apostles were addressing the heresies of Gnosticism while they were alive. "Science falsely so called..." = Gnosis falsely so called... And Gnosticism was all about esoteric GNOSIS reserved for the "spiritual elite" (the heretics).

Ὦ Τιμόθεε, τὴν παρακαταθήκην φύλαξον, ἐκτρεπόμενος τὰς βεβήλους κενοφωνίας καὶ ἀντιθέσεις τῆς ψευδωνύμου γνώσεως·

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: (1 Tim 6:20).

You can't take the Greek word gnosis and conclude Paul was talking about Gnosticism. Was Zacharias saying John the Baptist was a Gnostic heretic?:

To give to His people the knowledge (gnosis) of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,
Luke 1:77 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/luk.1.77.NASB

 

[MarcR]

A careful reading of I John clearly indicates he was dealing with a gnostic way of thinking. Whether or not full-blown Gnosticism existed yet is not really the point. Maybe I should have said John was dealing with a group of "gnostic-leaning" teachers.

I had no problem with your original wording.

 

[MarcR]

They argued against some ideas that, when later, Gnosticism would form and use. Gnosticism came from Christianity, Christianity didn't come from Gnosticism. Do you believe, as the atheists, that Christianity evolved from and parallels pagan religions?

I totally agree with you. Gnosticism indeed came from Christianity. My argument was simply that I believe that it came from Christianity earlier than you do; because John and Paul both confront it early.

 

[notuptome]

Too funny.........my comment was about as UN dramatic as it gets...........goodness.......

One mans sound doctrine is another mans heresy. or so they say........I just believe as I am led to believe. I do not count on or need a man/Denomination telling me what to believe or what sound doctrine is.

SOUND DOCTRINE is right there in Scriptures for all to read.....In my Bible it is even WRITTEN IN RED.

My heart is only hardened towards false or faulty teachings/teachers........got no time for 'em........

Not saying you are, just saying.........

As well, you are ONLY posting your interpretation.......unless I did not get the Memo where God appointed you Sound Doctrine Publisher In Charge.........

The position I presented is orthodox. Yours not so much. You are using yours to defame the security of believers. Not really a noble end from my position.

Keep seeking sound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

You can't take the Greek word gnosis and conclude Paul was talking about Gnosticism. Was Zacharias saying John the Baptist was a Gnostic heretic?

Paul was speaking about gnosis FALSELY SO CALLED -- ψευδωνύμου -- and condemning it. So why did you take that word from another Scripture where it was not falsely so called in order to deny this? Paul was confronting Gnostic heresies in his epistles, just as John was.

 

[Splagna]

Paul was speaking about gnosis FALSELY SO CALLED -- ψευδωνύμου -- and condemning it. So why did you take that word from another Scripture where it was not falsely so called in order to deny this? Paul was confronting Gnostic heresies in his epistles, just as John was.

Paul had Timothy stay in Ephesus to “instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines” (1 Timothy 1:3). These errant men were, “wanting to be teachers of the Law…” (! Timothy 1:7). The heresy at Ephesus that Paul wanted refuted was coming from Hellenistic Judaizers.

The Gnostics weren't the only ones to brag of knowledge; the Jews also bragged of knowledge :


But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know (γινώσκω ginōskō) His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge (γνῶσις gnōsis) and of the truth…(Romans 2:17-20).



γνῶσις/Gnosis 1 Timothy 6:20 very is likely referring to a form of Hellenistic Judaism and not mature Gnosticism.



To insist that 1 Timothy 6:20 is referring to Gnostics is unfounded and ignores the view of modern conservative scholarship. A generation or so ago influential scholars like Rudolf Bultmann taught that the NT writers were dealing with mature Gnosticism; however, in general later scholars have rejected Bultmann’s ideas and posit that some of the heresy the NT writer’s faced was composed of various concepts that were later integrated into mature Gnosticism. Scholars of late argue that the NT writers battled incipient or pre-Gnosticism not mature Gnosticism.

 

[louis]

John is writing about a group of gnostic teachers of his day. In verse 19 he seems to be saying this group has left the church. Their leaving the church is given as showing that thus they were not really "of us" (Greek - "out of"). It seems reasonable to conclude that vs. 19 means that when these false teachers (antichrists) left the church they were not believers (Christians). It may also be saying that they were never Christians at all, though a careful reading of the text does not demand this conclusion. What we know for sure is that these antichrists left the church and their leaving (John says) proves that they were not Christians when they left.

Whatever conclusion one comes to in the preceding paragraph, it is important to see here that John is not speaking about church members in general, but he is writing about a very specific group of people - the antichrists of vs. 18. What John says about these gnostic teachers may or may not apply to the church in general: nowhere in these verses does John make a general statement saying that anyone who leaves a church was never born again. John was writing about specific circumstances, not stating a universal principle.

I also believe as you do that these verses are in regards to a specific group of people from whom some had seperated themselves from due to their not believing in those things Christ believed.

As to why John states it then being the last hour, I believe it is in reference to that specific group of believers in Christ who would soon have to contend with those then reappearing antichrists who had previously seperated themselves from their community.

 

[Ralph-]

the security of believers.

Note.......BELIEVERS. Not ex-believers, not those who never believed, but BELIEVERS. Only BELIEVERS are secure in Christ.

The person who says they are a believer but who is living in the flesh isn't the believer they think they are. Ultimately, no promise of God applies to them until they come back to trust and faith in Christ. That's why John admonishes those who remain to let the word remain in them and to not also fall away like some did.


"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

"28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:28


Apparently John-contrary to what the church teaches today-thinks the children who remain can also fall away.

 

[Ralph-]

Gnosticism indeed came from Christianity.

And it's still in the church to this day, presently being represented in the form of the 'Freegrace/Hypergrace' movement. It teaches that once you believe nothing the flesh does counts for anything in regard to salvation or for being lost. It says that no matter what you do the spirit of a 'believer' stays pure and clean despite what he does on the outside. They do not know that the scriptures warn us of defiling our spirit, not just our physical bodies.


"beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."-2 Corinthians 7:1