in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb 'A SPECIFIC DURATION OF TIME'
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are you serious you don’t think there’s a heaven ? Consider these few examples but receive them and actually consider them to establish the foundation of what I’m talking about but actually consider
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Genesis 1:31 KJV
creation is heaven and earth this is how he apportioned it
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:
But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalm 115:16 KJV
we’ve never seen heaven but we can see it by faith hearing the word and believing
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
we’re told to seek after the thkngs abive where Christ is seated on his throne and not earthly things ( two realms ours and Gods )
“The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; And his kingdom ruleth over all.”
Psalm 103:19 KJV
when your reading revelation it is John bekng taken by the spirit to that throne in that heavenly kingdom to see
“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
Revelation 4:
are you able to at least acknolwedge there is another realm in creation that we can’t yet see ? Where God dwells and seees is ?
“ The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
Psalm 11:4 KJV
he sees all every aspect of creation
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3 KJV
and is not pleased with what he sees as he looks from heaven into earth
“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.”
Isaiah 59:15 KJV
this is a few examples of many to establish the simple truth creation has two realms of existence the natural created the earthly one is Gods kingdom another was given to men.
now if you can accept that Christ is on his throne in heaven the. This will make sense as to where believers are just this one example of many is what I’m talking about John is in heaven seeing thkngs in the kingdom that’s when he sees the believers with him before his throne
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-10, 14-17 KJV
That’s current that’s where believers who have died are now they are with thier king and high priest in his kingdom
This then adds to the understanding
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
Revelation 12:10-11 KJV
that’s how those standing before his throne got there they lived and believed the gospel and died in the lord and are alive with him now just like he’s promised in the gospel
when a Christian believer dies they go to be with Jesus there should be no question where he is
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Revelation 14:13
that’s who’s in heaven those who believed in the lord and passed away from earth
how would you think there’s no heaven ? Or no place to go to be with Jesus when we die ?
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8-9 KJV
when we die we’re going to see him face to face if we’ve believed we’re going to dwell on his kingdom forever it’s currently in heaven and when Christ returns it will return and be established in earth forever as it already is on heaven
we’re waiting for what’s done in heaven to come and be done on earth it’s first done in heaven
“and now it’s let it be done in earth as in heaven let your kingdom come and will be done “
You can see it if you don’t reject it it’s there and clear and these scriptures are a drop in the bucket of what the there in the Bible about heaven and earth and our place with Jesus
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Genesis 1:31 KJV
creation is heaven and earth this is how he apportioned it
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:
But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalm 115:16 KJV
we’ve never seen heaven but we can see it by faith hearing the word and believing
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
we’re told to seek after the thkngs abive where Christ is seated on his throne and not earthly things ( two realms ours and Gods )
“The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; And his kingdom ruleth over all.”
Psalm 103:19 KJV
when your reading revelation it is John bekng taken by the spirit to that throne in that heavenly kingdom to see
“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
Revelation 4:
are you able to at least acknolwedge there is another realm in creation that we can’t yet see ? Where God dwells and seees is ?
“ The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
Psalm 11:4 KJV
he sees all every aspect of creation
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3 KJV
and is not pleased with what he sees as he looks from heaven into earth
“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.”
Isaiah 59:15 KJV
this is a few examples of many to establish the simple truth creation has two realms of existence the natural created the earthly one is Gods kingdom another was given to men.
now if you can accept that Christ is on his throne in heaven the. This will make sense as to where believers are just this one example of many is what I’m talking about John is in heaven seeing thkngs in the kingdom that’s when he sees the believers with him before his throne
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-10, 14-17 KJV
That’s current that’s where believers who have died are now they are with thier king and high priest in his kingdom
This then adds to the understanding
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
Revelation 12:10-11 KJV
that’s how those standing before his throne got there they lived and believed the gospel and died in the lord and are alive with him now just like he’s promised in the gospel
when a Christian believer dies they go to be with Jesus there should be no question where he is
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Revelation 14:13
that’s who’s in heaven those who believed in the lord and passed away from earth
how would you think there’s no heaven ? Or no place to go to be with Jesus when we die ?
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8-9 KJV
when we die we’re going to see him face to face if we’ve believed we’re going to dwell on his kingdom forever it’s currently in heaven and when Christ returns it will return and be established in earth forever as it already is on heaven
we’re waiting for what’s done in heaven to come and be done on earth it’s first done in heaven
“and now it’s let it be done in earth as in heaven let your kingdom come and will be done “
You can see it if you don’t reject it it’s there and clear and these scriptures are a drop in the bucket of what the there in the Bible about heaven and earth and our place with Jesus
I understand they are both taking place concurrent as in Heaven is not waiting till earth finishes to begin. I even understand that the sons of God were in heaven before there was an earth, so you know I am following you so far.
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
I understand that there are souls dwelling IN HEAVEN before Satan and his angels are cast out. I know them to be those who GOD gave to Jesus (the captivity who heard Him preach the good news while He was in Hell for the 3 days, verified by John 11:25? ...and the dead will hear and live also in Matt ...and the graves opened and they were seen ect. Along with John 11:26 those who live and believe in Jesus will never die, Believe thou this? meaning everyone who comes to faith follows Him to the place He went to prepare for us, which is also verified in Rev where John falls at the feet of the ANGEL who tells him 'see thou do it not I am of thy brethren the prophets and those who are of faith' I paraphrase)
So people dwelling in heaven is not an issue.
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Satan kicked out of heaven
and those on earth, those who endure to the end, those who will overcome, those who will be ALIVE AND REMAINING to be changed will have DONE SO BY the blood of the Lamb, and by the words of GOD and they will STAND up for HIS NAMES SAKE, they will do what needs to be done because GODS DESIRE is that all come to repentance. These are they who take an example from history knowing THERE IS NOTHING new under the sun so when they hear things like 'GOD Would never do that to the church' or 'Jesus is coming to rapture people out of here', which is the exact opposite of Jesus saying BELIEVE THEM NOT when they say 'lo there is Christ or lo there is Christ' because Jesus doesn't return until AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN. Jesus also said 'there will be many of them SAYING IT. And look around today at how many are doing just that. JUST like in Jeremiah, 23 years he was telling them WE ARE GOING INTO CAPTIVITY AND they kept saying no we are not' but they did.
BUT those who do endure to the end do so by
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them
So I am with you to here also, there are people dwelling in heaven
Satan was possessing Judas right before the time Jesus was taken to heaven, so how could Satan have been cast out at the end of the war in heaven if not in heaven fighting the war?
Also, another really big problem with that is Satan is cast out with his angels. Do you remember what happen the last time 'fallen angels' came to the earth? GOD had to FLOOD it because of the GIANTS they produced.
So if Satan and the angels were cast out 2000 years ago there would be GIANTS EVERYWHERE by now. So THAT THEORY is going to have to be RE thought out.
As long as you see those 'spirits' in bodies I am with you all the way as to EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY. The natural body goes in the spiritual body rises up. Those are the words written by GOD anyhow.
CHRIST is in heaven ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE not on earth on the throne of David. BIG difference.
PARTAKERS OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, JUST LIKE JESUS.
HIM that OVERCOME and endure to the end. THOSE WHO ARE LEFT BEHIND will inherit
ALLOW me to share with you
5278. hupomenó
Strong's Concordance
hupomenó: to stay behind, to await, endure
Original Word: ὑπομένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupomenó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-om-en'-o)
Definition: to stay behind, to await, endure
Usage: (a) I remain behind, (b) I stand my ground, show endurance, (c) I endure, bear up against, persevere.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5278 hypoménō – literally, remaining under (the load), bearing up (enduring); for the believer, this uniquely happens by God's power (cf. 1 Thes 3:5). See 5281 (hypomonē).
You know who DOESN'T ENDURE TO THE END? Those who won't pick up their cross and follow Him are not worthy, those who don't stand and overcome, those who don't endure to the end, those who believe all the false christs who tell them lo there is Christ come to get you so you don't have to pick up your cross, you don't have to endure to the end God wouldn't do that to His Church, when in fact THAT IS GODS PLAN.
A house divided can not stand. So WHY would GOD divide His church? And so YOU MUST have read
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
TIGHTLY knit together, AKA all for one and one for all but when it comes right down to it, it is HE that overcomes, not 'the church as a group, just like it isn't a group that is pre trib raptured.
WHEN does the GREAT trib come? After the workings of Satan. When does Christ return? After the workings of Satan. Where are we gathered to the Lord AFTER the man of sin/Satan has been revealed and has deceived the world and has stood where he ought not and has killed the two witness.
Then the Lord returns.
THE NEW JERUSALEM comes to the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH, not before.
I hope you take note of these points and can convince me otherwise if what you are saying is in fact truth but know, this is just the tip of the ice berg. There is so much more. And that isn't even asking you any questions yet, questions pre trib CAN'T ANSWER. At least NOT ONE SINGLE person who has ever been asked has. How is that possible? The biggest miracle GOD WOULD ever do, and not once did Jesus mention it. Not before and NOT AFTER His death and resurrection
and HE told us I HAVE FORE TOLD YOU ALL THINGS. Did HE LIE? or do we trust what is written?
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
I understand that there are souls dwelling IN HEAVEN before Satan and his angels are cast out. I know them to be those who GOD gave to Jesus (the captivity who heard Him preach the good news while He was in Hell for the 3 days, verified by John 11:25? ...and the dead will hear and live also in Matt ...and the graves opened and they were seen ect. Along with John 11:26 those who live and believe in Jesus will never die, Believe thou this? meaning everyone who comes to faith follows Him to the place He went to prepare for us, which is also verified in Rev where John falls at the feet of the ANGEL who tells him 'see thou do it not I am of thy brethren the prophets and those who are of faith' I paraphrase)
So people dwelling in heaven is not an issue.
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Satan kicked out of heaven
and those on earth, those who endure to the end, those who will overcome, those who will be ALIVE AND REMAINING to be changed will have DONE SO BY the blood of the Lamb, and by the words of GOD and they will STAND up for HIS NAMES SAKE, they will do what needs to be done because GODS DESIRE is that all come to repentance. These are they who take an example from history knowing THERE IS NOTHING new under the sun so when they hear things like 'GOD Would never do that to the church' or 'Jesus is coming to rapture people out of here', which is the exact opposite of Jesus saying BELIEVE THEM NOT when they say 'lo there is Christ or lo there is Christ' because Jesus doesn't return until AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN. Jesus also said 'there will be many of them SAYING IT. And look around today at how many are doing just that. JUST like in Jeremiah, 23 years he was telling them WE ARE GOING INTO CAPTIVITY AND they kept saying no we are not' but they did.
BUT those who do endure to the end do so by
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them
So I am with you to here also, there are people dwelling in heaven
Satan was possessing Judas right before the time Jesus was taken to heaven, so how could Satan have been cast out at the end of the war in heaven if not in heaven fighting the war?
Also, another really big problem with that is Satan is cast out with his angels. Do you remember what happen the last time 'fallen angels' came to the earth? GOD had to FLOOD it because of the GIANTS they produced.
So if Satan and the angels were cast out 2000 years ago there would be GIANTS EVERYWHERE by now. So THAT THEORY is going to have to be RE thought out.
As long as you see those 'spirits' in bodies I am with you all the way as to EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY. The natural body goes in the spiritual body rises up. Those are the words written by GOD anyhow.
CHRIST is in heaven ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE not on earth on the throne of David. BIG difference.
PARTAKERS OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, JUST LIKE JESUS.
HIM that OVERCOME and endure to the end. THOSE WHO ARE LEFT BEHIND will inherit
ALLOW me to share with you
5278. hupomenó
Strong's Concordance
hupomenó: to stay behind, to await, endure
Original Word: ὑπομένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupomenó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-om-en'-o)
Definition: to stay behind, to await, endure
Usage: (a) I remain behind, (b) I stand my ground, show endurance, (c) I endure, bear up against, persevere.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5278 hypoménō – literally, remaining under (the load), bearing up (enduring); for the believer, this uniquely happens by God's power (cf. 1 Thes 3:5). See 5281 (hypomonē).
You know who DOESN'T ENDURE TO THE END? Those who won't pick up their cross and follow Him are not worthy, those who don't stand and overcome, those who don't endure to the end, those who believe all the false christs who tell them lo there is Christ come to get you so you don't have to pick up your cross, you don't have to endure to the end God wouldn't do that to His Church, when in fact THAT IS GODS PLAN.
A house divided can not stand. So WHY would GOD divide His church? And so YOU MUST have read
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
TIGHTLY knit together, AKA all for one and one for all but when it comes right down to it, it is HE that overcomes, not 'the church as a group, just like it isn't a group that is pre trib raptured.
WHEN does the GREAT trib come? After the workings of Satan. When does Christ return? After the workings of Satan. Where are we gathered to the Lord AFTER the man of sin/Satan has been revealed and has deceived the world and has stood where he ought not and has killed the two witness.
Then the Lord returns.
THE NEW JERUSALEM comes to the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH, not before.
I hope you take note of these points and can convince me otherwise if what you are saying is in fact truth but know, this is just the tip of the ice berg. There is so much more. And that isn't even asking you any questions yet, questions pre trib CAN'T ANSWER. At least NOT ONE SINGLE person who has ever been asked has. How is that possible? The biggest miracle GOD WOULD ever do, and not once did Jesus mention it. Not before and NOT AFTER His death and resurrection
and HE told us I HAVE FORE TOLD YOU ALL THINGS. Did HE LIE? or do we trust what is written?
Where did I say I didn't think there was a heaven.
PLEASE do me a favor and NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH IN THE FORM OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ASK. If someone were to read your question, it would look like I had said 'i don't think there is a heaven' WHICH you know I have not come close to saying and OF WHICH YOU ARE SURE I do NOT believe.
Those things are UNACCEPTABLE in conversations with those who are not being deceptive themselves. Believe me, I can form questions that make erroneous statements also BUT I DONT because of the 'light' they cast. Please do the same. I am not going to have another long conversation with anyone who does. Just want to give you fair warning. RIGHT now I am going to chalk it up to HIGH emotion and nothing more than an honest mistake and turn the other cheek.
PLEASE do me a favor and NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH IN THE FORM OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ASK. If someone were to read your question, it would look like I had said 'i don't think there is a heaven' WHICH you know I have not come close to saying and OF WHICH YOU ARE SURE I do NOT believe.
Those things are UNACCEPTABLE in conversations with those who are not being deceptive themselves. Believe me, I can form questions that make erroneous statements also BUT I DONT because of the 'light' they cast. Please do the same. I am not going to have another long conversation with anyone who does. Just want to give you fair warning. RIGHT now I am going to chalk it up to HIGH emotion and nothing more than an honest mistake and turn the other cheek.
I was reading some post that said something about eternal torment and I thought IMPOSSIBLE because you would have to have received immortality for eternal torment, which I knew was not possible for someone to attain without faith. No where is it written life or eternal torment. Eternal punishment - not eternally in the ACT of being punished, just punishment having been carried out with no chance of an appeal. 2nd death.
I was solidly convinced but I didn't know EXACTLY why. Now I am solidly convinced and I have all the Scripture to prove it. Now we know those who choose not to believe it do so AGAINST what is written in favor of Hath God said?. That is my work. To seek out the truth that only comes from 'but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God'.
Those who were being tormented were seeking death, so in no way is 2nd death being 'eternal torment' possible. Verses like these were found to confirm what was in the beginning just basic logic. I thought should be addressed as I knew of no doctrine written of it, so it had to just be a conclusion someone arrived at by the joining of two words. Eternal torment makes void what is written all over the place and leads us to QUESTION 'what' never needs to be questioned. Everything of this nature sets to widen the narrow path. People are so used to just believing whatever they want written or not, that making it STAND IN THE LIGHT makes everyone choose to believe is based on what is written or what is 'concluded'.
It all goes back to the first words of the Lords ministry and the way we are told to learn the words of God and what comes of it when we do and the problems that arise when we have not. How are we ever going to come to unity if anyone can teach as doctrines things that go against what is taught?
His wish is we all come together as one. So that is my wish.
I was solidly convinced but I didn't know EXACTLY why. Now I am solidly convinced and I have all the Scripture to prove it. Now we know those who choose not to believe it do so AGAINST what is written in favor of Hath God said?. That is my work. To seek out the truth that only comes from 'but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God'.
Those who were being tormented were seeking death, so in no way is 2nd death being 'eternal torment' possible. Verses like these were found to confirm what was in the beginning just basic logic. I thought should be addressed as I knew of no doctrine written of it, so it had to just be a conclusion someone arrived at by the joining of two words. Eternal torment makes void what is written all over the place and leads us to QUESTION 'what' never needs to be questioned. Everything of this nature sets to widen the narrow path. People are so used to just believing whatever they want written or not, that making it STAND IN THE LIGHT makes everyone choose to believe is based on what is written or what is 'concluded'.
It all goes back to the first words of the Lords ministry and the way we are told to learn the words of God and what comes of it when we do and the problems that arise when we have not. How are we ever going to come to unity if anyone can teach as doctrines things that go against what is taught?
His wish is we all come together as one. So that is my wish.