Imputed Righteousness???

[studier]

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless (ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε), I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me (τοῦ κυρίου μου): through-toward whom (δι᾽ ὃν) the all things (τὰ πάντα) I was plundered of (ἐζημιώθην, aorist passive), and I am reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι. present middle deponent) them dung/offal (σκύβαλα) to be (εἶναι, present infinitive), so that ( ἵνα) what is characteristic of Christ (Χριστὸν, anarthrous Christou) I might ultimately win/gain (κερδήσω, aorist subjunctive).

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing that which characterises Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know the Father. Through coming into Him to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

I'm going to try to give this the attention it deserves so may be in and out a bit as I find focused times to look at it. I may even just point out where I get an initial check in my spirit about something as I'm going to do here.

"I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me"​

​

"Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing"​

My walk though this stops for a moment to ask if "through-toward" is looking forward or backward. The insertion of "coming" is likely part of my hesitating. And this is where I think the lexicons would start making us think about nuance like causal.

Is Paul saying (a) I am recognizing all to be loss toward the excellency of knowing... IOW I have a new goal which far surpasses my old ones, or (b) through coming into the excellency of knowing, I now see the old things as loss... IOW I now see the new, so I now see the old as loss?

He's looking toward the gain which compares to the "through-toward" the excellency.

He knows enough to realize the loss and now he is seeking (toward) the gain.

I hesitate at the blue translation.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Thank you for the inspiration! .
Also, thank you for your very rare and refreshing response .

You're welcome. A while back (maybe two years ago) I started a study of what the Bible says about spiritual learning/perception, but I never followed through on it. Maybe it's time to really dig into it.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Might one equate only half listening as not hearing?

It's like when a person says to you, "Wait, what?" They really didn't hear you, but they heard something that peaked their interest.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh! I lost all the colour formatting by cutting and pasting this second half.

I am re-colouring it here and posting it again now.


Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless (ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε), I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me (τοῦ κυρίου μου): through-toward whom (δι᾽ ὃν) the all things (τὰ πάντα) I was plundered of (ἐζημιώθην, aorist passive), and I am reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι. present middle deponent) them dung/offal (σκύβαλα) to be (εἶναι, present infinitive), so that ( ἵνα) what is characteristic of Christ (Χριστὸν, anarthrous Christou) I might ultimately win/gain (κερδήσω, aorist subjunctive).

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing that which characterises Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know the Father. Through coming into Him to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

Phl 3:9 And I be found (καὶ εὑρεθῶ, aorist passive subjunctive) positioned-at-rest-in-him (ἐν αὐτῷ, en + dat.), not having (μὴ ἔχων) mine own (ἐμὴν) righteousness (δικαιοσύνην) - the righteousness that issues from what is characteristic of law (τὴν ἐκ νόμου, ek + gen. with anarthrous nomou ) - but rather (ἀλλὰ) the righteousness (τὴν) through-positioned-resting-in what is characteristic of Christ’s faith/faithfulness (διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ, dia + gen. with anarthrous pisteOs), the originating-in-and-issuing-out-of-what-characterises-God-righteousness (τὴν ἐκ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην, ek + gen. with anarthrous theou) positioned-at-rest-upon the faith/faithfulness already mentioned (ἐπὶ τῇ πίστει, epi + dative with arthrous pistei):

And I might possibly be found, in the end, at rest within Him, not having a righteousness of my own - the righteousness that comes out of legalism – but rather having the righteousness that has come about through resting in what characterises Christ’s faith/fulness - the righteousness that originates in and comes out of what characterises God and is resting/relying upon the faithfulness [of Christ]; or is resting/relying upon faith Christ Christ has; or is resting/relying upon the doctrine of the faith:

Phl 3:10 [having] the righteousness of-from the to know (τοῦ γνῶναι) him (αὐτὸν), and [having] the power / [to know] the power (καὶ τὴν δύναμιν) of His resurrection (τῆς ἀναστάσεως αὐτοῦ), and [having] the fellowship / [to know] the fellowship (καὶ τὴν κοινωνίαν) of His sufferings (τῶν παθημάτων αὐτοῦ), while being conformed (συμμορφούμενος, present passive participle) to His death (τῷ θανάτῳ αὐτοῦ);

[having] the [righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, and [having] the power of His resurrection, and [having] the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Note - If the accusatives "the power" and "the fellowship" are governed by having in v .8, then the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings are additions to the righteousness that comes from knowing Him;
In which case, Paul wants to be found in the end having three things: the righteousness that comes from knowing Him; the power of His resurrection; and the fellowship of His sufferings while still being conformed to His death.

But perhaps the "kai" is appositional, "even"
[having] the [righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, even [having] the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

In this case, You can't have this righteousness without having the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Or, [having] the [righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, and comes from knowing the power of His resurrection, and comes from knowing the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Note: If the accusatives "the power" and "the fellowship" are governed by "τοῦ γνῶναι" (to know by experience) then this righteousness comes from not just knowing Jesus Christ by experience, but also from knowing His resurrection by experience and from knowing the fellowship of His sufferings from experience, while at the same time being conformed to His death.
This sounds similar in sense to the case of the appositional kai above.

Note - This list of things are what "resting in what is characteristic of Christ's faith/faithfulness" entails; and these things originate in and come out of what is characteristic of God; and these things rest/rely upon the faith/fulness [of Christ], or these things rest/rely upon the the faith of Christ, or these things rest/rely upon the doctrine of the faith.
[I prefer the option of "Christ's faithfulness".]

Phl 3:11 If (εἴ ) by any means (πως) I might ultimately attain (καταντήσω, aorist active subjunctive) towards-into the resurrection (εἰς τὴν ἐξανάστασιν) of the dead (τῶν νεκρῶν).

If, by any means, in the end, I might possibly participate in the resurrection of the dead.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm going to try to give this the attention it deserves so may be in and out a bit as I find focused times to look at it. I may even just point out where I get an initial check in my spirit about something as I'm going to do here.

"I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me"​

​

"Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing"​

My walk though this stops for a moment to ask if "through-toward" is looking forward or backward. The insertion of "coming" is likely part of my hesitating. And this is where I think the lexicons would start making us think about nuance like causal.

Is Paul saying (a) I am recognizing all to be loss toward the excellency of knowing... IOW I have a new goal which far surpasses my old ones, or (b) through coming into the excellency of knowing, I now see the old things as loss... IOW I now see the new, so I now see the old as loss?

He's looking toward the gain which compares to the "through-toward" the excellency.

He knows enough to realize the loss and now he is seeking (toward) the gain.

I hesitate at the blue translation.

I would suggest it isn't fair to cut off my paraphrase of the sense at the place you have, since the sense of "through-into the excellency of knowing" (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον, dia + acc, ) needs an entry point and an exit point to arrive at something beyond what has been passed through. I am therefore trying to gauge from the context what Paul had in mind as the thing passed through and the thing arrived at after passing through.
I was envisioning Paul seeing himself as entering into the excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I was wondering what he passes through this excellency to arrive at beyond this excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I thought that would be the excellency of knowing what characterises the Father.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless (ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε), I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me (τοῦ κυρίου μου): through-toward whom (δι᾽ ὃν) the all things (τὰ πάντα) I was plundered of (ἐζημιώθην, aorist passive), and I am reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι. present middle deponent) them dung/offal (σκύβαλα) to be (εἶναι, present infinitive), so that ( ἵνα) what is characteristic of Christ (Χριστὸν, anarthrous Christou) I might ultimately win/gain (κερδήσω, aorist subjunctive).

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing that which characterises Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know that which characterises the Father.
Through coming into my Lord (the referent of whom/hon) to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

So, through entering Christ and arriving in the Father's presence, Paul has come into a place where He is learning about the things that characterise Christ, and through that He is learning the things that characterise the Father, And all the things Paul used to value before coming into Christ have become offal to him, because they just cannot compare to the excellency of the things he is discovering about Christ and the Father through becoming in Christ.

It could be that the anarthrous Christou IEsou is a title and refers to Christ rather than to what is characteristic of Christ. Then I could paraphrase the translation as -

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know the Father.
Through coming into my Lord (the referent of whom/hon) to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

So, through entering Christ and arriving in the Father's presence, Paul has come into a place where He is learning about Christ, and through that He is learning about the Father, And all the things Paul used to value before coming into Christ have become offal to him, because they just cannot compare to the excellency of the things he is discovering about Christ and the Father through becoming in Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

I would suggest it isn't fair to cut off my paraphrase of the sense at the place you have, since the sense of "through-into the excellency of knowing" (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον, dia + acc, ) needs an entry point and an exit point to arrive at something beyond what has been passed through. I am therefore trying to gauge from the context what Paul had in mind as the thing passed through and the thing arrived at after passing through.
I was envisioning Paul seeing himself as entering into the excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I was wondering what he passes through this excellency to arrive at beyond this excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I thought that would be the excellency of knowing what characterises the Father.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless (ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε), I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me (τοῦ κυρίου μου): through-toward whom (δι᾽ ὃν) the all things (τὰ πάντα) I was plundered of (ἐζημιώθην, aorist passive), and I am reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι. present middle deponent) them dung/offal (σκύβαλα) to be (εἶναι, present infinitive), so that ( ἵνα) what is characteristic of Christ (Χριστὸν, anarthrous Christou) I might ultimately win/gain (κερδήσω, aorist subjunctive).

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing that which characterises Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know that which characterises the Father.
Through coming into my Lord (the referent of whom/hon) to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

So, through entering Christ and arriving in the Father's presence, Paul has come into a place where He is learning about the things that characterise Christ, and through that He is learning the things that characterise the Father, And all the things Paul used to value before coming into Christ have become offal to him, because they just cannot compare to the excellency of the things he is discovering about Christ and the Father through becoming in Christ.

It could be that the anarthrous Christou IEsou is a title and refers to Christ rather than to what is characteristic of Christ. Then I could paraphrase the translation as -

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know the Father.
Through coming into my Lord (the referent of whom/hon) to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

So, through entering Christ and arriving in the Father's presence, Paul has come into a place where He is learning about Christ, and through that He is learning about the Father, And all the things Paul used to value before coming into Christ have become offal to him, because they just cannot compare to the excellency of the things he is discovering about Christ and the Father through becoming in Christ.

There may also be a sense in which the things Paul valued before becoming in Christ ar incompatible with the new knowledge he is acquiring, and holding onto those past valuables undermines the effectiveness of the new, so that he sees them as a handicap to his future growth in Christ. So he needs to jettison them as one jettisons the entrails of the sacrificial bull.

 

[Mem]

There may also be a sense in which the things Paul valued before becoming in Christ ar incompatible with the new knowledge he is acquiring, and holding onto those past valuables undermines the effectiveness of the new, so that he sees them as a handicap to his future growth in Christ. So he needs to jettison them as one jettisons the entrails of the sacrificial bull.

Interesting and very plausible seeing that the entrails are of the sacrificial bull are burned up.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Thank you for the inspiration! .
Also, thank you for your very rare and refreshing response .

I found my post introducing the study that I started a year ago (not 2 years as I misremembered). Here it is in case you're interested...

My love for the Louw Nida Greek-English lexicon just continues to grow. I am now embarking on a study of the NT's use of words that relate to human understanding, focusing on human understanding of spiritual truths. In Louw Nida's world, this is Symantic Domain 32. Here is Louw-Nida's footnote to Symantic Domain 32:​

​

All the domains and subdomains relating to intellectual activity (Domains 24–32) involve considerable overlapping and multi-dimensional relationships. Domain Know (28) involves essentially the possession of information, while Learn (27) treats the acquisition of information. The Domain Think (30) involves primarily the manipulation of information, while Understand (32) refers to a process by which information is used in order to arrive at a correct comprehension or evaluation. However, no one aspect of these intellectual activities is completely devoid of other aspects, and thus, to a certain extent, any attempt to classify various aspects of these activities or states inevitably results in what mathematicians call ‘fuzzy sets,’ that is to say, classes of items which show considerable overlapping and indeterminate borders.​

​

In the Domain Understand, the first set of subdomains (A to C) deals essentially with the process of comprehension, while Subdomains D and E focus upon the capacity for understanding, and accordingly, meanings such as ‘foolish,’ ‘senseless,’ ‘wise,’ and ‘intelligent’ are included.​

[Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). United Bible Societies.]​

​

Certainly, Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, et. al.) indicates that spiritual understanding is a gift from God ("He answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know (LN 32.16) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.'" Mt 13:11). But Hebrews 5:12-14 seems to indicate that, through lack of use, gifted people can lack the capacity to understand.​

​

11 ...you have become dull of hearing (LN 32.47). 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses (LN 32.28) exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:12–14)​

​

Through this study, I hope to learn how I might help myself (and others) better grasp and understand the truths revealed in Scripture about our intimate personal relationships with the Creator.​

 

[Magenta]

I found my post introducing the study that I started a year ago (not 2 years as I misremembered). Here it is in case you're interested...

My love for the Louw Nida Greek-English lexicon just continues to grow. I am now embarking on a study of the NT's use of words that relate to human understanding, focusing on human understanding of spiritual truths. In Louw Nida's world, this is Symantic Domain 32. Here is Louw-Nida's footnote to Symantic Domain 32:​

​

All the domains and subdomains relating to intellectual activity (Domains 24–32) involve considerable overlapping and multi-dimensional relationships. Domain Know (28) involves essentially the possession of information, while Learn (27) treats the acquisition of information. The Domain Think (30) involves primarily the manipulation of information, while Understand (32) refers to a process by which information is used in order to arrive at a correct comprehension or evaluation. However, no one aspect of these intellectual activities is completely devoid of other aspects, and thus, to a certain extent, any attempt to classify various aspects of these activities or states inevitably results in what mathematicians call ‘fuzzy sets,’ that is to say, classes of items which show considerable overlapping and indeterminate borders.​

​

In the Domain Understand, the first set of subdomains (A to C) deals essentially with the process of comprehension, while Subdomains D and E focus upon the capacity for understanding, and accordingly, meanings such as ‘foolish,’ ‘senseless,’ ‘wise,’ and ‘intelligent’ are included.​

[Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). United Bible Societies.]​

​

Certainly, Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, et. al.) indicates that spiritual understanding is a gift from God ("He answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know (LN 32.16) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.'" Mt 13:11). But Hebrews 5:12-14 seems to indicate that, through lack of use, gifted people can lack the capacity to understand.​

​

11 ...you have become dull of hearing (LN 32.47). 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses (LN 32.28) exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:12–14)​

​

Through this study, I hope to learn how I might help myself (and others) better grasp and understand the truths revealed in Scripture about our intimate personal relationships with the Creator.​

Thank you, though it seems a bit cumbersome compared to the simplicity found in comparing what is said of the natural man to what is said of the spiritual man in Scripture. The natural man is the one not yet made alive in Christ. His heart has not been circumcised, and is not good ground for growing faith, being beyond cure except for the working of God. It is with the heart that one believes. The natural man is a lover of darkness, a slave to sin, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is captive to the will of the devil, and can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, which are foolishness to him. That bad tree cannot produce good fruit. He is inherently hostile in his mind toward God, hates God, has no fear of God (which is the beginning of wisdom), and is opposed to the spiritual things of God.

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[studier]

I would suggest it isn't fair to cut off my paraphrase of the sense at the place you have, since the sense of "through-into the excellency of knowing" (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον, dia + acc, ) needs an entry point and an exit point to arrive at something beyond what has been passed through. I am therefore trying to gauge from the context what Paul had in mind as the thing passed through and the thing arrived at after passing through.
I was envisioning Paul seeing himself as entering into the excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I was wondering what he passes through this excellency to arrive at beyond this excellency of the knowledge of what characterises Christ, and I thought that would be the excellency of knowing what characterises the Father.

Please bear with me for a moment.

First, as an aside, I hope you know I'm not trying to be unfair. I was simply focusing in on a portion of the Text.

Next, let's back up a verse and see what we can do to establish a few things about timing under discussion and the dia+acc language:

3:7 Whatever things were being (imperfect) gain to me – these things I have come to consider loss through the Christ (dia + acc).

• The things Paul described before 3:7 were in the past existing (imperfect tense - continuous in past) as gain/valuable to him
• At some point in the past those things ceased to be valuable to Paul and at the time of writing they were not valuable to him (perfect tense)
• At some point, Paul came to regard and he now regards those things as loss dia ton Xriston
  • Although I expressed my appreciation for the spatial view as a good base, I’m not currently satisfied that the interpretations applied to them by Newberry or ? are always applicable. That source would have to show me every use in Scripture of dia + acc and how and why that determination was thus a set rule.
  • Although I also expressed my appreciation for the inclusion of the Father (through Christ) I said I’d have to ponder it. My concern here is you’re proposing a rule I’m not set on and through that rule proposing the Father is in view. I’m open but cautious.

I mentioned lexicons and essentially that I read them with a grain of salt, which is pretty much how I read everything: Here's BDAG:

BDAG dia + acc (major headings):​

​

B. w. acc.​

1. marker of extension through an area, through ​

2. marker of someth. constituting cause ​

a. the reason why someth. happens, results, exists: because of, for the sake of (do something for the sake of a divinity​

b. in direct questions διὰ τί; why? ​

c. διά foll. by inf. or acc. w. inf., representing a causal clause, because ​

d. instead of διά w. gen. to denote the efficient cause we may have διά, by​

α. w. acc. of thing ​

β. w. acc. of pers. and freq. as expr. of favorable divine action ​

Here are all the dia + acc constructions in Philippians: How would you translate these according to the dia+acc spatial rule - even a couple to begin with?

• NET Phil. 1:7 For it is right for me to think this about all of you, because I have (dia + acc + infinitive) you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel all of you became partners in God's grace together with me.
• NET Phil. 1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ from envy and rivalry (dia + acc), but others from goodwill (dia + acc).
• NET Phil. 1:24 but it is more vital for your sake (dia + acc) that I remain in the body.
• NET Phil. 2:30 since it was because of the work (dia + acc) of Christ that he almost died. He risked his life so that he could make up for your inability to serve me.
• NET Phil. 3:7 But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ (dia + acc).
• NET Phil. 3:8 More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value (dia + acc) of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom (dia + acc) I have suffered the loss of all things– indeed, I regard them as dung!– that I may gain Christ,

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Thank you, though it seems a bit cumbersome compared to the simplicity found in comparing what is said of the natural man to what is said of the spiritual man in Scripture. The natural man is the one not yet made alive in Christ. His heart has not been circumcised, and is not good ground for growing faith, being beyond cure except for the working of God. It is with the heart that one believes. The natural man is a lover of darkness, a slave to sin, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is captive to the will of the devil, and can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, which are foolishness to him. That bad tree cannot produce good fruit. He is inherently hostile in his mind toward God, hates God, has no fear of God (which is the beginning of wisdom), and is opposed to the spiritual things of God.
.

I agree with you. But I am interested in learning more about how the spiritual man learns or what may hinder his learning. I believe the answer is that learning is "by faith" (i.e., trusting and internalizing what the Spirit of God says). To me, it is obvious that people who claim to be learning from the Lord have many divergent points of view on many subjects. It can't be that everyone who disagrees with what I have learned from the Lord is lost. There is more to it than that. So my investigation will focus on what the Scriptures say about how we learn spiritual things so that I can be more successful at approving things that are true and so that I may help others do the same.

 

[studier]

@PaulThomson

Here's an example of what I mean by translating this dia+acc rule to the language. Please do modify it as you see fit to make it make sense, which it needs to do:

3:7 But whatever [things] were being (imperf) to/for me gain/profit/advantageous (valuable), these things I have considered/regarded and now consider/regard (perf) through-toward the Christ (dia ton Xriston) loss/disadvantage (of no value/good for nothing)

• In the past Paul was regarding some things as personal gain
• At some point in the past coming towards the Christ in order to pass through the Christ and continue to someone/something beyond the Christ and continuing until Paul wrote this, Paul had begun to regard and now regarded those things as loss

BTW, this is all meant to get back to the topic of imputed righteousness per the OP

 

[studier]

My love for the Louw Nida Greek-English lexicon just continues to grow.

Since then, are you focused on L-N or do you look at others as well?

What gave you the appreciation for L-N?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Since then, are you focused on L-N or do you look at others as well?

What gave you the appreciation for L-N?

My Logos Bible software has several dictionaries and lexicons. My main two are the Louw-Nida Lexicon and the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT). But I also regularly consult Swanson's Greek Dictionary of Biblical Languages and the Enhanced Strongs Lexicon.

I like Louw-Nida because it gives nuances of meaning for each Greek word and examples of each. TDNT is good for going in-depth on a particular Greek word including extra-Biblical uses and history of development of the meaning. Besides being expensive, the drawback for using TDNT is it is very verbose and hard to read because it often quotes Greek or Hebrew passages in the original languges (and I can't read them very well). The abridged version helps in this regard, but it is much less informative.

 

[studier]

My Logos Bible software has several dictionaries and lexicons. My main two are the Louw-Nida Lexicon and the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT). But I also regularly consult Swanson's Greek Dictionary of Biblical Languages and the Enhanced Strongs Lexicon.

I like Louw-Nida because it gives nuances of meaning for each Greek word and examples of each. TDNT is good for going in-depth on a particular Greek word including extra-Biblical uses and history of development of the meaning. Besides being expensive, the drawback for using TDNT is it is very verbose and hard to read because it often quotes Greek or Hebrew passages in the original languges (and I can't read them very well). The abridged version helps in this regard, but it is much less informative.

Thanks. I've used the same for decades and carried around the TDNT in print util Logos came out and I began building that digital library. I gave away all my print versions so I could work and move around more easily and others could possibly benefit from their use. Before Logos BibleWorks included a good selection of Lexicons (incl. L-N and BDAG & others) and references and it's still my favored although not supported anymore.

As I said earlier, it's refreshing to see you using and posting from such tools. It's also good to see some of them on public domain and more learning to be referencing them in discussions.

 

[PaulThomson]

• NET Phil. 1:7 For it is right for me to think this about all of you, because I have (dia + acc + infinitive) you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel all of you became partners in God's grace together with me.
• NET Phil. 1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ from envy and rivalry (dia + acc), but others from goodwill (dia + acc).
• NET Phil. 1:24 but it is more vital for your sake (dia + acc) that I remain in the body.
• NET Phil. 2:30 since it was because of the work (dia + acc) of Christ that he almost died. He risked his life so that he could make up for your inability to serve me.
• NET Phil. 3:7 But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ (dia + acc).
• NET Phil. 3:8 More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value (dia + acc) of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom (dia + acc) I have suffered the loss of all things– indeed, I regard them as dung!– that I may gain Christ,

Upon going to bed last night, I realised I was looking at dia a bit incorrectly. I have been thinking going through something requires entering it from outside and exiting it into something beyond. But this is not so. A fish can swim through the sea from a position within the sea, and arrive at a destination what is also within the sea, such as a kelp bed. So, all that is required is to move for some time though a state to arrive at a destination, which may be either within or beyond that state.
So the Father can be in Christ, rather than beyond Christ, and we can still go through Christ to get to the Father.


1:7 καθώς ἐστιν δίκαιον ἐμοὶ τοῦτο φρονεῖν ὑπὲρ πάντων ὑμῶν διὰ τὸ ἔχειν με ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ ὑμᾶς ἔν τε τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου καὶ τῇ ἀπολογίᾳ καὶ βεβαιώσει τοῦ εὐαγγελίου συγκοινωνούς μου τῆς χάριτος πάντας ὑμᾶς ὄντας

What is Paul moving into / arriving at? Thinking these things of the Ephesians.
What is Paul passing through? A state of having them in his heart.

Thus it is right for me to think these things concerning all of you, because doing so is a result of me having you in my heart...


1:15 Τινὲς μὲν καὶ διὰ φθόνον καὶ ἔριν τινὲς δὲ καὶ δι᾽ εὐδοκίαν τὸν Χριστὸν κηρύσσουσιν·
What are some moving into /arriving at? Preaching Christ.
What are they passing through? A state of either envy or goodwill.

Some, to be sure, have ended up preaching Christ as result of experiencing a state of envy and rivalry for a time, but others as a result of being in a state goodwill for a time.
It could be that those who ended up preaching Christ as result of experiencing a state of envy and rivalry, have left behind their envy and rivalry. Or they may be still in it.

1:24 τὸ δὲ ἐπιμένειν ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἀναγκαιότερον δι᾽ ὑμᾶς

What is Paul moving into / arriving at? The conviction that he should stay in flesh.
What is Paul passing through? The experience of sensing the spiritual needs of the Ephesians and at the same time a desire to be away from the earth and in the presence of the Lord.

Nevertheless, to abide in the flesh is more needful because you have needs I can minister to, if I remain.

2:29 προσδέχεσθε οὖν αὐτὸν ἐν κυρίῳ μετὰ πάσης χαρᾶς καὶ τοὺς τοιούτους ἐντίμους ἔχετε
2:30 ὅτι διὰ τὸ ἔργον τοῦ Χριστοῦ μέχρι θανάτου ἤγγισεν παραβουλευσάμενος τῇ ψυχῇ ἵνα ἀναπληρώσῃ τὸ ὑμῶν ὑστέρημα τῆς πρός με λειτουργίας

What was Timothy moving into/arrive at? A state of being near to death
What was Timothy passing through to get there? A period of working for Christ by supplying the Ephesisans' lack.

Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Because through doing the work of Christ to supply your lack of service toward me. he drew near to death, not regarding his life,

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Thanks. I've used the same for decades and carried around the TDNT in print util Logos came out and I began building that digital library. I gave away all my print versions so I could work and move around more easily and others could possibly benefit from their use. Before Logos BibleWorks included a good selection of Lexicons (incl. L-N and BDAG & others) and references and it's still my favored although not supported anymore.

As I said earlier, it's refreshing to see you using and posting from such tools. It's also good to see some of them on public domain and more learning to be referencing them in discussions.

LOL, my pastor had a stack of those TDNT books, took up a whole row on his bookshelf. I can't imagine manually looking up a dozen words in all those volumes. I purchased Logos just so I could have an electronic copy.

I just learned about BDAG. I don't have it, but I heard it was well respected.

And I just learned how to search Logos for a range of Louw-Nida domains (e.g., "LouwNida:32.1-32.4"). It is very useful.

Good to know you enjoy Logos as well. Do you ever morphology searches? I occasionally find them helpful.

 

[studier]

LOL, my pastor had a stack of those TDNT books, took up a whole row on his bookshelf. I can't imagine manually looking up a dozen words in all those volumes. I purchased Logos just so I could have an electronic copy.

I just learned about BDAG. I don't have it, but I heard it was well respected.

And I just learned how to search Logos for a range of Louw-Nida domains (e.g., "LouwNida:32.1-32.4"). It is very useful.

Good to know you enjoy Logos as well. Do you ever morphology searches? I occasionally find them helpful.

I recommend getting BDAG. It's pretty much the choice these days.

I've had Logos since shortly after it launched and purchased the Scholars Library but have only ever become a basic user. I do keep adding to my library mostly because I expect it to become the long-term system unless a public site catches up. I've worked a bit to increase my use of it this year. I really cut my teeth on Bibleworks which was the best languages tool according to many. It's very easy to use but as I said, it's no longer supported. I also purchased Accordance for Mac when BW stopped selling.

I saw your notes on the LN domains. I haven't used Logos to search the domains, but I have looked at their structure in LN.

Thanks for the response and info.

 

[studier]

Upon going to bed last night, I realised I was looking at dia a bit incorrectly. I have been thinking going through something requires entering it from outside and exiting it into something beyond. But this is not so. A fish can swim through the sea from a position within the sea, and arrive at a destination what is also within the sea, such as a kelp bed. So, all that is required is to move for some time though a state to arrive at a destination, which may be either within or beyond that state.
So the Father can be in Christ, rather than beyond Christ, and we can still go through Christ to get to the Father.

This is more the sense I was hoping you'd see. as it's what I see. In Christ is where everything takes place for us, including our relationship with our Father who is in mutual abiding relationship with our first-born brother and Lord, to say the least. I see this as one of the reasons John uses "eis" and Jesus speaks in John10 of being the door. In effect we go dia Him eis Him and remain en Him and en Him we have relationship with the Godhead and with one another as His siblings and His Body. I don't think at the moment that we ever want to see ourselves going dia Him including the sense of ek Him.

So, with this or more refining, we get back to looking spatially and lexically at the language. I'll look at your comments on the Phil verses separately to see what you've considered. And then back to refining the Phil3 verses.

 

[studier]

1:7 καθώς ἐστιν δίκαιον ἐμοὶ τοῦτο φρονεῖν ὑπὲρ πάντων ὑμῶν διὰ τὸ ἔχειν με ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ ὑμᾶς ἔν τε τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου καὶ τῇ ἀπολογίᾳ καὶ βεβαιώσει τοῦ εὐαγγελίου συγκοινωνούς μου τῆς χάριτος πάντας ὑμᾶς ὄντας

What is Paul moving into / arriving at? Thinking these things of the Ephesians.
What is Paul passing through? A state of having them in his heart.

Thus it is right for me to think these things concerning all of you, because doing so is a result of me having you in my heart...


1:15 Τινὲς μὲν καὶ διὰ φθόνον καὶ ἔριν τινὲς δὲ καὶ δι᾽ εὐδοκίαν τὸν Χριστὸν κηρύσσουσιν·
What are some moving into /arriving at? Preaching Christ.
What are they passing through? A state of either envy or goodwill.

Some, to be sure, have ended up preaching Christ as result of experiencing a state of envy and rivalry for a time, but others as a result of being in a state goodwill for a time.
It could be that those who ended up preaching Christ as result of experiencing a state of envy and rivalry, have left behind their envy and rivalry. Or they may be still in it.

1:24 τὸ δὲ ἐπιμένειν ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἀναγκαιότερον δι᾽ ὑμᾶς

What is Paul moving into / arriving at? The conviction that he should stay in flesh.
What is Paul passing through? The experience of sensing the spiritual needs of the Ephesians and at the same time a desire to be away from the earth and in the presence of the Lord.

Nevertheless, to abide in the flesh is more needful because you have needs I can minister to, if I remain.

2:29 προσδέχεσθε οὖν αὐτὸν ἐν κυρίῳ μετὰ πάσης χαρᾶς καὶ τοὺς τοιούτους ἐντίμους ἔχετε
2:30 ὅτι διὰ τὸ ἔργον τοῦ Χριστοῦ μέχρι θανάτου ἤγγισεν παραβουλευσάμενος τῇ ψυχῇ ἵνα ἀναπληρώσῃ τὸ ὑμῶν ὑστέρημα τῆς πρός με λειτουργίας

What was Timothy moving into/arrive at? A state of being near to death
What was Timothy passing through to get there? A period of working for Christ by supplying the Ephesisans' lack.

Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Because through doing the work of Christ to supply your lack of service toward me. he drew near to death, not regarding his life,

It looks to me like your working through these things results in conclusions that are very much like the lexical definitions for dia + acc. I also note that a good dictionary shows how the English "through" provides a range of definitions that are the same as some of the lexical definitions of dia + acc and dia + gen. What I find at times looking at the spatial and comparing to the lexical is an enhanced understanding of what the lexical is portraying. For example, we need to go through something for it to become the cause for doing something else and that going through does not always mean leaving it but our remaining in it or it in us mentally, spiritually, even physically.

When it comes to us en Christ and Christ en us, think of the spatial dynamics of how things eis us remain en us and even work out ek from us with Him working en and dia us. As I mentioned before it's a fascinating study to see how God works things dynamically, spatially, prepositionally in relation to us with regard to Christ re: things like faith, righteousness, justification, etc. I recall it creating quite a visually dynamic process where the flow of such things can be seen.