Imputed Righteousness???
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O
ocean
Guest
Pilgrim you have manufactured a false little story of what actually transpired. You are the one who actually posted to me regarding my reply to an different person. If you are at peace within yourself while offering false flattery to others to disguise how you have tired to manipulate the actual conversation, then I can only reiterate that an honest discussion with you is hard to come by.
My post 81 where I responded to NewLifeinChrist is what you took exception to it seems and you rendered a lengthy response to me as it seems you think it is your civic duty to correct everyone. You don't discuss; you post numerous scriptures that you indicate contradict a person, in this case me, and attempt to 'prove' a lack of understanding on the part of the person you respond to and again, in this case, me.
The op was questioning the term 'imputed righteousness' and my post 81 was on track with that op. I again responded to NewLifein Christ in post 86 and clarified I now had a better understanding of what he was saying and I agreed with what he had said.
Then you come along in your post 91 addressed to me and appear to correct a view, which I DO NOT EVEN HAVE, and go on about how we do not have freedom to sin. So, in my post 119 I responded to your post to me as follows:
I did not understand how you would possibly assume I was somehow condoning sin if I agreed that Christ is our righteousness and He alone is actually righteous. Don't you see the false assumption you have come to in this exchange which YOU actually engineered?
I address this mistaken understanding of yours in following posts; each one of which you ignored and you continued on with your
original lack of comprehension.
When a person, ANY person anywhere, at any time and in any place makes a statement and another person comes along and ignores what is actually said and then develops a different rendition of what was actually said, it can only be taken to understand that the 2nd person lacks understanding and or comprehension OR they deliberately, for some reason, wish to create error about the character or beliefs of the first person. I'm not getting into that. Your motives are between you and your Creator.
You have diverted the op and presented a false picture of the exchange we actually had. For the record, when I asked you why you tried to make it seem I take sin lightly by listing verses declaring the evils of sin, this is what you said:
Post 118
your response in post 119
And after that, you actually had plenty to say. I don't find it funny. I don't appreciate your false narrative about me either since YOU actually posted to me and not the other way around. You are responsible for what you post and what you say as we all are. I, am not responsible for you continuing to make it seem I was after you when it was the other way around.
You should be careful to respond to what people actually say and not in a way that seems to change what they said and then continue with a false narrative. I would hope that would be everyone's aim here; be honest and exchange posts in a way that illustrates honest discussion. Posting reams of scripture is something anyone can do and in this case you posted reams of unrelated scripture to what I wrote. You are free to post whatever you want of course but you should do so without twisting what another says.
My post 81 where I responded to NewLifeinChrist is what you took exception to it seems and you rendered a lengthy response to me as it seems you think it is your civic duty to correct everyone. You don't discuss; you post numerous scriptures that you indicate contradict a person, in this case me, and attempt to 'prove' a lack of understanding on the part of the person you respond to and again, in this case, me.
The op was questioning the term 'imputed righteousness' and my post 81 was on track with that op. I again responded to NewLifein Christ in post 86 and clarified I now had a better understanding of what he was saying and I agreed with what he had said.
Then you come along in your post 91 addressed to me and appear to correct a view, which I DO NOT EVEN HAVE, and go on about how we do not have freedom to sin. So, in my post 119 I responded to your post to me as follows:
I did not understand how you would possibly assume I was somehow condoning sin if I agreed that Christ is our righteousness and He alone is actually righteous. Don't you see the false assumption you have come to in this exchange which YOU actually engineered?
I address this mistaken understanding of yours in following posts; each one of which you ignored and you continued on with your
original lack of comprehension.
When a person, ANY person anywhere, at any time and in any place makes a statement and another person comes along and ignores what is actually said and then develops a different rendition of what was actually said, it can only be taken to understand that the 2nd person lacks understanding and or comprehension OR they deliberately, for some reason, wish to create error about the character or beliefs of the first person. I'm not getting into that. Your motives are between you and your Creator.
You have diverted the op and presented a false picture of the exchange we actually had. For the record, when I asked you why you tried to make it seem I take sin lightly by listing verses declaring the evils of sin, this is what you said:
Post 118
your response in post 119
And after that, you actually had plenty to say. I don't find it funny. I don't appreciate your false narrative about me either since YOU actually posted to me and not the other way around. You are responsible for what you post and what you say as we all are. I, am not responsible for you continuing to make it seem I was after you when it was the other way around.
You should be careful to respond to what people actually say and not in a way that seems to change what they said and then continue with a false narrative. I would hope that would be everyone's aim here; be honest and exchange posts in a way that illustrates honest discussion. Posting reams of scripture is something anyone can do and in this case you posted reams of unrelated scripture to what I wrote. You are free to post whatever you want of course but you should do so without twisting what another says.
O
ocean
Guest
verb (used with object) (Dictionary.com)
imputed, imputing.
- to attribute or ascribe:
The children imputed magical powers to the old woman. - to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
- Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
- Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
This transfer of righteousness (does not mean we are now sinless, it means we have the righteousness of Christ, not our own righteousness) is achieved through our trust in Him and not through anything we do other than by faith accept His death as our own.
This is not to be confused, as it seems some do, with believing we are free to sin. That is a bogus accusation and dismissal of what is really said regarding imputed righteousness.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. II Cor. 5:21
God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. I Cor. 1: 28-30
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:21-24
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5: 17-19
So yes, IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is absolutely a biblical term and without it, not one of us could stand before God who demands we meet His requirements. We can only do so through Christ who is our righteousness.
Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.
O
ocean
Guest
The thread is about a biblical truth that is denied by the op and those who like the op. Behavior was not the topic. Actually, Jesus is the topic as He is the One from whom we are given righteousness that we do not have and cannot attain. If that is misunderstood, than it seems a person may strive all their life to obtain what is unobtainable.
It is also without merit that a person should then somehow understand that to mean we have freedom to sin. We do not. We have freedom in Christ. We do not have to bear false guilt or fall under false accusations. Sanctification is another process in this life but the op was not about that either.
Ocean and Pilgrim, the way to resolve the dispute and be unified IMO is for both of you to agree with what I proposed:
"understand that IR (because of spiritual oneness with Jesus via receiving His HS at conversion) is one truth, but it is also true or biblical teaching that apostasy is possible (and souls may shipwreck their faith if they do not persevere in cooperating with GW regarding moral/godly behavior with the goal of actual perfection Paul cited in PHP 2:12 & 3:12)."
Do you not agree that if y'two agreed with this suggestion (amend as needed if I missed a key point) then y'2 would essentially agree with each other and we could move on to quarrel about another topic? Who wants to go first? On your mark, get set, forgive! :^)
O
ocean
Guest
Agreeing with error would set a very bad precedent. Interesting that you ignore the actual op and decide to meddle instead. Why do you insist in wanting to develop the false assumption I have no understanding of what it means to follow Christ? We cannot work for our own righteousness and are entirely forever and eternally grateful that we do not have to.
Let me put it to you another way. It would not be groovy to agree with you either.
Why was the part in parentheses (amend as needed if I missed a key point) not in your reply?!
It is difficult enough to communicate without such glitches. As you can see, I thought I might not have understood something sufficiently and invited you to amend my suggestion as needed.
So now that you understand that, would you like to do so--not for my sake so much as to prepare the way for amending your relationship with pilgrim, if he will agree.
If he amends the suggestion differently, then at least we all will have clear understanding of what we ought to agree to disagree about.
(BTW, I liked the way you put it another way :^)
I looked up where imputed is said in the Bible. I found one place in the Bible with that word. It is Leviticus 17:4. I am familiar with the concept of imputed righteousness in Christianity. But as being imputed with Christ's righteousness is not specifically said in the Bible, I see why I have not been speaking of it myself, and speak of the righteousness believers are associated with in other ways that I see are based on Bible passages. Righteousness that we need before God is not our own. Jesus Christ has that righteousness, and with his being in the place of judgment for sins for us, who are in Christ with the essential faith, we are then covered in his righteousness before God. It works with repentance we have in responding to God with the essential faith, and we would turn from sins against God that we are made aware of. It is not a finished process, with growth we would be made aware of more to turn from, and it really works if we are looking for God's will for us rather than looking for what God permits for us.
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People's personal accounts read like indictments, and are on track to be
gone over at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Jesus' personal account reads like a line of credit because he never
committed even one single sin of his own during his entire life but managed
to please His father in every detail the whole time he was here.
In a nutshell: God has devised a clever way to do away with people's
personal accounts and replace them with His son's account which, needless
to say, appears be cooking the books but nevertheless, if true, is a huge
advantage because with Jesus' account on their books, it will appear that
people have never been anything but 100% innocent.
_
People's personal accounts read like indictments, and are on track to be
gone over at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Jesus' personal account reads like a line of credit because he never
committed even one single sin of his own during his entire life but managed
to please His father in every detail the whole time he was here.
In a nutshell: God has devised a clever way to do away with people's
personal accounts and replace them with His son's account which, needless
to say, appears be cooking the books but nevertheless, if true, is a huge
advantage because with Jesus' account on their books, it will appear that
people have never been anything but 100% innocent.
_
This is a very clever (and insightful) description of one of the mainstream views of imputed righteousness/justification. I actually had one pastor who liked to say just-if-ication makes you "just as if you had never sinned".
There are issues with this POV, in my opinion. First, God will never forget our sins or the price that Jesus paid to redeem us. Second, the righteousness that we possess in Christ is "true righteousness" (Eph 4:24). There are more things wrong with it, but these are the main two in my opinion.
What are all the possible meanings of the phrase "the righteousness of God" that you can come up with?
We are all guaranteed resurrection bodies, like his own glorious body.
In that sense, God has imputed His own righteousness to us.
God can not fail in what He wants to do.
Therefore, God sees our righteousness as a done deal.
For all in Christ will be resurrected with a glorious body like his own glorious body.
So, what are we left with?
The righteousness of God …
As seen by God, who sees the future as if it is the present.
bingo!
We have the imputed righteousness of Christ! Romans 3:22
Yes, and to "imputed". So far we have the following synonyms:
imputed = counted = credited = reckoned = considered = accounted = imparted = substituted
None, I was just doing some editing by listing words that have been used as related to impute in this thread.
Blain mentioned substitution in #19 but I forgot where I saw impart.
However, if God credits/reckons believers as having the righteousness of Christ, does that not imply that it has been substituted for their sins or imparted to them positionally?
We are all guaranteed resurrection bodies, like his own glorious body.
In that sense, God has imputed His own righteousness to us.
God can not fail in what He wants to do.
Therefore, God sees our righteousness as a done deal.
For all in Christ will be resurrected with a glorious body like his own glorious body.
So, what are we left with?
The righteousness of God …
As seen by God, who sees the future as if it is the present.
bingo!
We have the imputed righteousness of Christ! Romans 3:22
You did not mentions "the kind of righteousness God requires' as a possible meaning for "the righteousness of God."
e.g. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken spirit and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." Ps 51:17 "The sacrifices of God" are not the sacrifices God does. They are the kind of sacrifices God requires.
.
What is the range of possible meaning of the term "the righteousness of God"? God's own righteousness is only one of several possible meanings.
God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became/becomes for us wisdom from God— our righteousness, holiness and redemption. I Cor. 1: 28-30
This says that "Jesus becomes/became for us (hEmin) wisdom from God (apo theou)." What does that mean? Does it mean that Jesus Himself becomes a download of understanding into our brain that makes us suddenly wise? Or does it mean that the teaching about Jesus and the teaching Jesus brought to us becomes something we start considering to be wise and from God, so that we start to transform our thinking to bring it more and more into conformity to Jesus and His teachings? I would say the latter. If it is the latter, then Jesus and His teaching become our righteousness, holiness and redemption. To me this means that Jesus and His teachings on righteousness become our understanding of what righteousness is. Jesus and His teachings on hoiness become our understanding of what holiness is. And Jesus and His teachings on redemption become our understanding of what redemption is.
"Our righteousness, holiness and redemption" is in apposition to "the wisdom from God".
If I say, "This is John. John is a doctor." I can write this as "This is John - a doctor."
So, when Paul says, "Christ Jesus became to us wisdom from God - our righteousness, holiness and redemption" he is saying,
"Christ Jesus became to us wisdom from God. Wisdom from God is our righteousness, holiness and redemption." That is not saying that Christ's righteousness becomes imputed to us.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.; even (de) the righteousness of God (dikaiosunE theou) through faith/faithfulness (dia pisteOs) of Jesus Christ (IEsou Christou) to all (eis pantas) and (kai) onto all (epi pantas) the [ones] believing (tous pisteuontas). There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:21-24
"The righteousness of God to which the Law and the Prophets testify" is placed in apposition to "the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faithfulness ". The Law and the Prophets were testifying to God's righteousness expressed through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in incarnating, living sinless, dying and rising again as promised in the law and Prophets. Jesus Christ's faithfulness was not just toward God, but was to all and onto all who are believing that He was faithful. This is not saying that Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers. It is saying that the righteousness of God has been expressed in the faithfulness of Christ to the Law and Prophets and the faithfulness of Christ to believers by applying His blood to believers to forgive their sins according to the promises in the law and prophets, and Christ's faithfulness upon believers by bestowing the Holy Spirit upon all believers according to the Law and prophets.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5: 17-19
We are made righteous by our sins being washed away, removed from us as far the east is from the west. We did not deserve this. It was provided out of God's abundant provision of grace and a gift. This does not say we are made righteous by having Gid;s own tighteousness, or Christ's own righteousness imputed to us.