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If we are going to keep the SABBATH the 7th day, in HEAVEN, Why are not people keeping it now ???
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This title shows a lack of understanding. When eternity replaces time, then God's eternal Sabbath becomes the eternal rest of the saints in Christ.
HEBREWS 4: THE ETERNAL REST OF GOD
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His [GOD'S] rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if [Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into His [GOD'S] rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Notice these verses in context:
Is 56
1Thus says the LORD:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from his people”;
and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4For thus says the LORD:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
6“And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”
8The Lord GOD,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,
“I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered.”
What's my point?
The same section of Scripture mentions burnt offerings and sacrifices...yet bud62 is claiming that the Sabbath is still valid, but I doubt he would say that burnt offerings are still valid.
That's the problem with Sabbatarianism..a lot of their proof texts are similarly inconsistent.
Now, the dispensationalists will tell you that, in fact, this pertains to the Millennium, and individuals during the Millennium will be keeping these days. However, they have a problem because such verses also include sin offerings...and they aren't just memorials like the dispensationalists will claim..the phrase "sin offering" is used.
What happens to their literal hermeneutic when verses that are problematic are presented? They are thrown out the window or ignored
However, getting back to bud62's proof text, he will likely use verses which refer to the Sabbath, but in the same section of Scripture, you will see that festivals and New Moons are spoken of, at the same time....he won't tell you that though
He might not even know it if he hasn't had whole books of the Bible taught to him over time, like the Reformed do. Such organizations are proof-texters. They hopscotch around Scripture to make their point without connecting it to the entire book.
What about it, bud62? Are you claiming burnt offerings are to be offered, too? They are in the same context. If you are using the Sabbath verses as proof texts, then you need to answer the question, why aren't you providing burnt offerings?
I didn’t mean to laugh, but the placement of the second bubble cracked me up.Yes, it's the same ol' same ol'.
This sounds like a Seventh Day Adventist position.
Colossians 2:16-17 places the weekly Sabbath in the same grouping as the annual festivals and new moons.
If anyone is concerned about this, I would read the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.
Seventh Day Adventists have invested a lot of time and effort into refutation of Colossians 2:16-17, however their explanations are incoherent. Basically they try to claim that the weekly Sabbath is not included in these verses, because they know if it is, their position regarding the Sabbath is incoherent.
I would also challenge them on this: their health care facilities are performing elective abortions on women. Why are they butchering babies, all the time being insistent that the Fourth Commandment applies, and that having services on the LORD's day is idolatry?
By the way, I used to be a Sabbathkeeper. I was raised in a Sabbathkeeper church, and I became a baptized member of it. It sounds like a correct position on a superficial level, however, upon closer scrutiny the position fails.
The issue is this: the Mosaic Law is no longer in effect. Certainly the moral aspects of the Law are pertinent to godly behavior, and thus are not something a real believer would want to violate. But, throwing days and diets into the moral category is incoherent.
And, they are being selective on their observance of days, and the manner they are observed as well.
By the way, the Sabbath issue can be deeply divisive. Some Sabbatarians consider non-observers to be unsaved. At the least, their organizations almost uniformly believe they represent the true faith.
In the organization I belonged to, I didn't consider anyone outside of the Church to be saved.
I also find it amusing that when I have taken a non-Sabbatarian position on forums, at different times SDAs have called me an undercover Jesuit priest
Some of them are really paranoid about that..they probably sit on the toilet reading Alexander Hislop's "Two Babylons" which is where a lot of this comes from. Hislop was not a Sabbatarian, but his view of Roman Catholicism corresponds pretty much with the SDA view of them.
Anyways, Colossians 2:16-17 pretty much destroys the Sabbathkeeper argument. Of course, the SDAs have created complicated, convoluted explanations on this, but they don't hold water. Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff would show you the problem with their exegesis of these verses.
And, generally when you delve deeper into Sabbathkeeper theology, you will find other issues..for instance, many SDAs are not truly Trinitarian. Their view of the Trinity is more like tri-theism.
Additionally, they do not believe that Jesus entered into the Holy of Holies until AD 1844. Apparently they haven't read the book of Hebrews.
The weekly SABBATH Has nothing to do with Moses hand write. The feast Sabbath, Was a shadow Sabbath,
GODs SABBATH WILL Be for ever and ever . Isaiah 66:22-23 Tell us that the SABBATH will be kept In the NEW earth And the new heaven. And people are walking all over it down here , But to the people that love the LORD And keeping HIS commandments, It is BLESSED to them, because it is a sign and a seal unto THEM, THAT the LORD sanctify them,
Hi Nehemiah,
I don't see it that way. The "day" that the writer to the Hebrews (who, as Hebrews, would already observe the sabbath) is not a day but a person, Jesus. It is, as you quote, "another day". He is our sabbath rest and the writer of the epistle is urging his readers not to return to Judaism but to "enter that rest".
Otherwise, what you say is right. Eternity will replace time.
Notice that what he is saying is that Sabbatarians are the true believers.
Same as the cult I belonged to...the Armstrongites.
Notice, also the inconsistencies here:
Isaiah 66:18-23
18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.
(ESV)
I assume that the darkened portion is his reference..
Well, if one applies Sabbath observance to the New Heavens and New Earth, are they forgetting that New Moons are mentioned in the same context, as well as the Levitical priesthood?
It's funny how guys like this will clasp their hands over their eyes and ignore the surrounding verses.
Festival observance, New Moons, the Levitical priesthood, and sin offerings are all used in similar context in the verses that these guys refer to. Do they not know that Jesus' sacrifice was the last sacrifice?
The Reformed view is that the prophets are portraying either 1) a restored worship of the true God which exists today, to individuals under the Mosaic Covenant using language they were familiar with, describing true worship or 2) perhaps observances that will occur in the New Heavens and New Earth, using Mosaic Covenant language, so the hearers could relate to it.
If you're a dispensationalist, I'm guessing you'll claim these things will be observed during the Millennial reign, but again we run into the problem of sin offerings existing in the future. Dispies will claim that these sin offerings will be "memorials" but that's not following their own hermeneutic, and imposing things on the text which aren't specifically ennumerated. I don't have a problem with that because I am NOT dispensationalist, but they are being little hypocrites if they claim such things, when the text doesn't say it, because they aren't following their "literalization" hermeneutic.
Anyways, back to the Sabbathkeeper..why aren't you being consistent and quoting the whole verse, including the New Moons part, which I don't think you would be observing if you are a SDA or Armstrongite. You can't use verses to support your view, and ignore other observances mentioned in the same context.
By the way, this is what caused me to see the absurdity of Sabbathkeeper rhetoric. And, if someone is a SDA, they need to explain why their organization continues to perform elective abortion on women in their health care facilities. This is a great abomination.
Again, read Colossians 2:16-17.
They are all lumped together as "shadows" whose substance is Christ.
Compare Colossians 2:16-17 with Hebrews 10:1-4, 9:9-11 to see that this "shadow" language is relating the Sabbath to the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law.
Days and diet are not moral issues.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
What I find interesting here is that the day of Pentecost, was on Sunday and it is that day that the Holy Spirit came to the apostles who were in the upper room. Literally the birth of the church was on Sunday. Later Paul preach all night on a Sunday night. On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
Acts 20:7 NASB
Paul also admonishes both the Corinthians and the Galatians to take up a collection each week on Sunday until he comes so that when he is there they don't spend time taking up a collection.
Then John has a revelation which becomes the book of the Revelation on the Lord's day which is Sunday or the first day of the week.
According to Justin Martyr (ca. 100-ca. 165), included readings from Scripture (particularly the Gospels), a sermon, communal prayer, and Communion—very different from Jewish Sabbath observance. By Jewish standards, Christians don't keep the Sabbath at all.
By the way, where do you find that the Sabbath is going to be kept in heaven?
Maybe you are assuming the New Heavens and New Earth are heaven.
In reality, the earth will become the dwelling place of God. And there won't be any night anymore if Revelation is correct.
So, how can you identify the Sabbath if there is no more night?
Revelation 22:1-5
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
(ESV)
Also, I didn't see any answer to my assertion that different people all over the earth "keep the Sabbath" at different times due to the rule concerning keeping it from sunset to sunset. You are claiming only a particular 24 hour slot is holy, and the rest of the days are pagan and belong to Satan. So, doesn't that make God less powerful than Satan? And, most importantly, if a particular 24 hour slot is holy, and the rest are not, aren't the Sabbathkeepers outside of Palestine keeping it at a wrong time, since they observe it when sunset comes to them?
This is part of the reasoning that made me realize Sabbathkeeping was specific to the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant in the land of Palestine. However, the fact that my Sabbathkeeping cult thought very little about things other than days or diet...they mentioned those issues WAY more than talking about Jesus and the Cross.
Yeah..Sunday is also the "eighth day"..and the number "eight" in the Bible symbolizes new beginnings...so does the number 50 by the way.
Jesus, in the resurrection, inaugurated a new beginning. His resurrection body is the beginning of the firstfruits of a greater harvest...the salvation of all believers. And those who are saved actually are new creations now.
In ancient Israel, the newborn child was circumcised on the eighth day as a type of this new creation. Sunday, the eighth day, can be viewed in a similar way. Believers have entered into the new creation.
As an ex Sabbathkeeper, I liked this explanation:
The number “8” has to do with the new creation, and so does the number “50”….which is (7X7) + 1.
Jesus worked 6 days (symbolically) in his ministry, and finished his work on the cross on Friday (“It is finished”) then rested in the grave on Saturday. He was resurrected on Sunday (day 8) as a new creation (in terms of his resurrection body; not in terms of being YHVH).
Jesus is the BEGINNING of the new creation; the firstfruits (I Corinthians 15, Revelation 3:1).
Hebrew children were physically circumcised on the 8th day, which is a physical type of the new birth or the new creation or being born again (Leviticus 12:3).
On the first Pentecost after the Exodus (which is calculated as the 50th day from the weekly Sabbath during Passover), the Israelites received the Law on Mount Sinai (by Jewish tradition), and became a new physical nation that typified the Church.
On the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was received by the apostolic church, and the Church became a new spiritual nation; a kingdom of priests (Acts 2).
On the land sabbath year, at the end of the year, all debt was forgiven, and there is a new beginning starting in the eighth year (Deuteronomy 15:1-6). This is symbolic of Jesus and the forgiveness of our sins to begin a new life.
On the Jubilee year, which is the 50th year in the Israelite calendar system, all debts were forgiven and the land was returned back to the original property owners; in essence a new life and a restoration (Leviticus 25:8-15). For the believer, this relates to the liberation that we receive in Jesus, where our spiritual debt is forgiven.
So, these things point toward the new creation, which starts with Jesus’ resurrection. For us, regeneration (being born again) is the beginning of our new life. Ultimately, the new creation reaches fulfillment in a New Heavens and New Earth/New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).
By the way, I believe this is the theological justification for the day of worship being on Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. I read a quote by an early church father that gave me some hint concerning this, and now I am more convinced that the early church had SOLID THEOLOGICAL REASONS for the practice.
Jesus our Lord, the Church, and each individual Christian, is a new creation.
Sorry if I cause some of our dispensationalist friends' heads to spin around and around, and smoke to blow out their ears, by my typological reasoning. I don't think their hermeneutical paradigms can handle such thoughts.
When Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" Keeping the Sabbath day under the old covenant involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.
If keeping the Sabbath day was still required, then so would the burnt offerings that went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Ezekiel 46:12). No kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). This was commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).
If keeping the Sabbath day is still in affect, then why don't Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD has commanded in regards to keeping the Sabbath? How can Sabbatarians keep a certain law when they only part of it? If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.
So who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? How about the Government? Since we don't live under a theocratic state as Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can consistently live under these Mosaic regulations.
If keeping the Sabbath day was still required, then so would the burnt offerings that went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Ezekiel 46:12). No kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). This was commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).
If keeping the Sabbath day is still in affect, then why don't Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD has commanded in regards to keeping the Sabbath? How can Sabbatarians keep a certain law when they only part of it? If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.
So who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? How about the Government? Since we don't live under a theocratic state as Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can consistently live under these Mosaic regulations.
Blessed is the Man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it ,
This says the Man Not JEWS
JESUS says the SABBATH was Made for MAN, Not JEWS,
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
That was kind of my thoughts.
What scripture says we will be having Sabbath days in Heavens?
In regards to Mark 2:27, "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.." This statement was in response to the accusation by the Pharisees that Jesus' disciples were breaking the law regarding resting on the Sabbath while going through the fields and plucking heads of grain. (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)
Jesus responded by giving an example from the Old Testament in which David was once in need of food and was given consecrated bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat (1 Samuel 21:1-6). The bread served a practical need for David and his men, just as with Jesus and His disciples, the grain served a practical need. David and his men were not acting sinfully in eating the showbread, and neither were Jesus’ disciples by plucking heads of grain on the Sabbath. Jesus concludes, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27-28) Jesus' response to the accusing Pharisees contains these important teachings:
First off, the Sabbath was intended to help people, not burden them. In contrast with the agonizing, daily work as slaves in Egypt, the Israelites were commanded to take a day of rest each week under the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees had turned the Sabbath into a burden by adding restrictions beyond what God’s law said. The disciples had not broken God’s law, they merely violated the Pharisees’ own legalistic, interpretation of the law. Jesus reminded the Pharisees of the original intent of the Sabbath rest. Jesus statement does not teach that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, as you suppose.
Jesus said, "the Sabbath was made for man," not all mankind. When Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it plainly says so. See (Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11). These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.
The Sabbath was not given to all the nations. It was given to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15, which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Nehemiah 9:13 - "Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses." *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.
The Word of God makes it clear that Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." (Exodus 31:16-17).
Again, in Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." (Deuteronomy 5:15).
Romans 10:3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
You go ahead and choose to live by the Law, but you better know that you will thus be judged by the Law and NOT GRACE!
all we'd know from their answer is that they aren't using the L1 norm correctly. they might be operating on a set with a different measure.
