If it be thy will

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

Jordon

Well-known member
Mar 19, 2025
5,896
750
113

I wonder does this mean that Gods sovereignty also means prayer can change our future, some will say God does not change his mind, but I would of thought and believe God's sovereignty is about changing minds, so I wonder like this understanding in this sermon if God agreed with human will would that make humans God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blain
It's look to me that God being sovereign over all things doesn't mean determinism.
 
Also remember Jesus himself said if it by thy will he would never have said that if God's mind could not be changed
 
Blain said:
Also remember Jesus himself said if it by thy will he would never have said that if God's mind could not be changed
Click to expand...
you mean God's mind couldn't be changed ?

Here's a Tricky question.

I wonder if God can delay his decision ? for instance moses stepped in front of God who was just about to destroy the people for worshiping a golden calf, and because of moses doing that, did God Change his mind, or did God delay his choice, ? Did God just stop because Moses was in his way or was it God was striking fear into the people and knew Moses would beg for mercy ?

But do you think it was the plea of mercy from moses that changed Gods mind or delayed his choice, or was Gods mind changed, or could it be when mercy is asked for God can decide to change his way How God deals with people.
 
Jordon said:
you mean God's mind couldn't be changed ?

Here's a Tricky question.

I wonder if God can delay his decision ? for instance moses stepped in front of God who was just about to destroy the people for worshiping a golden calf, and because of moses doing that, did God Change his mind, or did God delay his choice, ? Did God just stop because Moses was in his way or was it God was striking fear into the people and knew Moses would beg for mercy ?

But do you think it was the plea of mercy from moses that changed Gods mind or delayed his choice, or was Gods mind changed, or could it be when mercy is asked for God can decide to change his way How God deals with people.
Click to expand...
No it isn't that God's mind couldn't be changed that isn't what I was saying I was saying Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken from him if it was his will so clearly Jesus knew God's mind could be changed

As for moses yes I believe that because moses stepped up and pleaded for mercy for his people that God's mind was changed because he loved Moses
I don't think it was delayed either I think it was that he changed his mind because of Moses
 
Blain said:
No it isn't that God's mind couldn't be changed that isn't what I was saying I was saying Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken from him if it was his will so clearly Jesus knew God's mind could be changed

As for moses yes I believe that because moses stepped up and pleaded for mercy for his people that God's mind was changed because he loved Moses
I don't think it was delayed either I think it was that he changed his mind because of Moses
Click to expand...
Either way, delaying His choice would be changing his mind. Maybe He decided to destroy them then changed His mind to I’ll wait and see what happens. Of course one could say “He already knew what would happen”. But God being able to know the future doesn’t mean He always looks at the future. I believe He could choose not to know the future. Same as Him being in control. Just because He can control all things doesn’t mean He does control things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blain
Just_A__Follower said:
Either way, delaying His choice would be changing his mind. Maybe He decided to destroy them then changed His mind to I’ll wait and see what happens. Of course one could say “He already knew what would happen”. But God being able to know the future doesn’t mean He always looks at the future. I believe He could choose not to know the future. Same as Him being in control. Just because He can control all things doesn’t mean He does control things.
Click to expand...
To be honest I think he understands time in a way we cannot fathom we think of time as past present and future to him it is one and the same beginning and end as one and the choices we make? yes even that is understood in a way we are not able to fully comprehend it may be that our choices were known while also being known in a way we cannot understand

I mean if there are say different timelines in which each deicision had a different outcome what if this is the case and this is why it can be known yet have different outcomes
 
Blain said:
No it isn't that God's mind couldn't be changed that isn't what I was saying I was saying Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken from him if it was his will so clearly Jesus knew God's mind could be changed

As for moses yes I believe that because moses stepped up and pleaded for mercy for his people that God's mind was changed because he loved Moses
I don't think it was delayed either I think it was that he changed his mind because of Moses
Click to expand...
From how I'm seeing it is, When Jesus if it be thy will take this cup from me, He was saying that on the bases if God took it was his will and if God didn't it wasn't, which means the fathers mind couldn't be changed on the outcome.

So to say if it be thy will is saying it on the bases of what ever mind God has already ordained by means, and not on the bases you can change Gods mind.
 
Blain said:
To be honest I think he understands time in a way we cannot fathom we think of time as past present and future to him it is one and the same beginning and end as one and the choices we make? yes even that is understood in a way we are not able to fully comprehend it may be that our choices were known while also being known in a way we cannot understand

I mean if there are say different timelines in which each deicision had a different outcome what if this is the case and this is why it can be known yet have different outcomes
Click to expand...
From how I'm seeing it is, When Jesus said if it be thy will take this cup from me, He was saying that on the bases if God took it was his will and if God didn't it wasn't, which means the fathers mind couldn't be changed on the outcome.

So to say if it be thy will is saying it on the bases of what ever mind God has already ordained by means, and not on the bases you can change Gods mind.
 
Blain said:
To be honest I think he understands time in a way we cannot fathom we think of time as past present and future to him it is one and the same beginning and end as one and the choices we make? yes even that is understood in a way we are not able to fully comprehend it may be that our choices were known while also being known in a way we cannot understand

I mean if there are say different timelines in which each deicision had a different outcome what if this is the case and this is why it can be known yet have different outcomes
Click to expand...
I definitely can’t fathom being outside of time. Kinda hurts my head thinking about it. I look at situations like the flood. If He knew it would get as bad as it did, would He have let it go all the way, or did He let it go that far because He knew Noah would be born and He would be the only one that He could trust? So many questions that I could ask when I meet Him but I imagine I’ll be in too much awe to speak anything other than praise.
 
Jordon said:
From how I'm seeing it is, When Jesus if it be thy will take this cup from me, He was saying that on the bases if God took it was his will and if God didn't it wasn't, which means the fathers mind couldn't be changed on the outcome.

So to say if it be thy will is saying it on the bases of what ever mind God has already ordained by means, and not on the bases you can change Gods mind.
Click to expand...
Why would Christ ask the question if He knew the answer though? He knew the plan and what He was to do, but He still asked for the plan to change. Seems like He knew there was a possibility of the Father changing His will. I see “if it be thy will” as Son submitting to the Father as in, I ask that you change your mind but I respect whatever choice you make.
 
Jordon said:
From how I'm seeing it is, When Jesus said if it be thy will take this cup from me, He was saying that on the bases if God took it was his will and if God didn't it wasn't, which means the fathers mind couldn't be changed on the outcome.

So to say if it be thy will is saying it on the bases of what ever mind God has already ordained by means, and not on the bases you can change Gods mind.
Click to expand...
I am a bit confused do you mean to say that God wouldn't change his mind with Jesus request?
 
Jordon said:

I wonder does this mean that Gods sovereignty also means prayer can change our future, some will say God does not change his mind, but I would of thought and believe God's sovereignty is about changing minds, so I wonder like this understanding in this sermon if God agreed with human will would that make humans God.
Click to expand...
You seem to be confusing God changing some specific plan He has for the future with the future itself changing. The future itself does not exist in reality, so the future itself cannot change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GWH
Blain said:
I am a bit confused do you mean to say that God wouldn't change his mind with Jesus request?
Click to expand...
The scripture shows, the human nature of Jesus that didn't want to suffer anymore, but Jesus also recognising He couldn't change the fathers Will, because he immediately followed that plea with the acceptance of God's will, and God's purpose that he couldn't change God's mind. Because he said if it be thy will, he didn't say oh God change your mind and take this cup.

The phrase doesn't express a demand for God to change his mind but a submission to God's will 🙂
 
If it be thy will

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It would seem that God's will can be frustrated by our own.
 
Jordon said:
The scripture shows, the human nature of Jesus that didn't want to suffer anymore, but Jesus also recognising He couldn't change the fathers Will, because he immediately followed that plea with the acceptance of God's will, and God's purpose that he couldn't change God's mind. Because he said if it be thy will, he didn't say oh God change your mind and take this cup.

The phrase doesn't express a demand for God to change his mind but a submission to God's will 🙂
Click to expand...
So quick question then do you believe that the fathers will can be changed if he so desires like say if we give a plea or prayer for his will to change or is his will set in stone and his mind cannot be changed?
 
PaulThomson said:
You seem to be confusing God changing some specific plan He has for the future with the future itself changing. The future itself does not exist in reality, so the future itself cannot change.
Click to expand...
Your confused, You clearly demonstrate the exact opposite of message that prayer can change how God interacts with people.

Simply put everybody owes God something, and if they don't pay what they owe with God, then there futures is set in the direction it will go.

If they pay then so does there path.

What do you think the number one thing is you owe God
 
Blain said:
So quick question then do you believe that the fathers will can be changed if he so desires like say if we give a plea or prayer for his will to change or is his will set in stone and his mind cannot be changed?
Click to expand...
we cant change Gods mind is my understanding, doesn't matter what we say, or do prayer is about trust.

And we have to trust God knows all things and he knows his plan for all humanity.

For us to change Gods mind means we have to change his plan, I believe exactly like the understanding in the lecture, by a well put together educated lecture, For us to change Gods mind we would have to be God himself. It's about God changing our minds
 
Jordon said:
we cant change Gods mind is my understanding, doesn't matter what we say, or do prayer is about trust.

And we have to trust God knows all things and he knows his plan for all humanity.

For us to change Gods mind means we have to change his plan, I believe exactly like the understanding in the lecture, by a well put together educated lecture, For us to change Gods mind we would have to be God himself. It's about God changing our minds
Click to expand...
I am curious then why Jesus who was perfect even bothered asking God to take his cup away from him
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jordon
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back