If Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, would Jesus still have been sent to bring us salvation?
- Thread starter Temple_of_Truth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Think about your question. There was no death before man sinned. Therefor the theoretically correct answer is, No. But the Bible teach us that God always knew man would sin and for that reason He knew He would die on the cross for our sins from the first second He started with the creation.
-
3
- Show all
I understand that God is omniscient and omnipotent, and everything is going by His will.
But the taking of the fruit was the act of committing sin and the cause of the Fall right?
Why would God, who is absolute love and goodness, create human beings knowingly that they would fall and commit sin?
Because due to the Fall of Adam and Eve, there was a long course of 6000 years of fallen history where human beings have suffered in this sinful world, causing so much pain and anguish to so many people.
I do believe that everything is going by God’s plan. However, there are examples in the Bible that got me thinking about this point.
After Adam and Eve ate the fruit they hid themselves from God. “Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” (Genesis 3:9 -10)
Why would God who knows everything ask such questions to Adam and Eve, even though he would know the answers they would already give?
Also Genesis 6:6 says “And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart” and he repeated it in Genesis 6:7 “for I am sorry that I have made them”
God regretted and grieved over mankind this way many times in the Bible. Even in regards to one of the great kings in the Bible.
In 1 Samuel 15:11 ““I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.””
Why does God regret when he knows everything?
But don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt God. For sure God knows everything. But how do you explain this discrepancy?
But the taking of the fruit was the act of committing sin and the cause of the Fall right?
Why would God, who is absolute love and goodness, create human beings knowingly that they would fall and commit sin?
Because due to the Fall of Adam and Eve, there was a long course of 6000 years of fallen history where human beings have suffered in this sinful world, causing so much pain and anguish to so many people.
I do believe that everything is going by God’s plan. However, there are examples in the Bible that got me thinking about this point.
After Adam and Eve ate the fruit they hid themselves from God. “Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” (Genesis 3:9 -10)
Why would God who knows everything ask such questions to Adam and Eve, even though he would know the answers they would already give?
Also Genesis 6:6 says “And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart” and he repeated it in Genesis 6:7 “for I am sorry that I have made them”
God regretted and grieved over mankind this way many times in the Bible. Even in regards to one of the great kings in the Bible.
In 1 Samuel 15:11 ““I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.””
Why does God regret when he knows everything?
But don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt God. For sure God knows everything. But how do you explain this discrepancy?
This question begs for another question, what the fruit really was.
What does discerning of good and evil mean? Most people think discerning of moral good and evil, but there are different uses of this pair in the Bible. I believe it's ability to know/discern all opposites (such as gain and loss). In some Bible verses good and evil are used in this way, both separately and paired up. Notice that when Eve decided that the fruit was good and desireable to make one wise, she already thought in her mind that to eat was gain, and to not eat was loss - didn't she discern already and sin already by coveting in her mind?
I think this discerning was the fruit in and of itself, which made the eyes open. The ability to discern also automatically makes one subject to moral law because they become able to judge, and so they immediately saw they were naked. The fruit is our discerning ability, as the name implies.
Now, although Adam and Eve were real ancestors in Messianic bloodline this also illustrates mankind all at once, and I think the story is an allegory. That doesn't mean that Adam and Eve weren't real people themselves. The skins represent acquiring physical bodies. The snake represents DNA, aka being born human (as opposed to animal) and having intellectual abilities (cunning above all beasts). Another forum member mentioned to me earlier that the number of the snake's words in the Bible matches the number of chromosomes. The snake is condemned to not have legs (walk upright) and indeed the flesh will never walk upright. They are cast out "east of Eden" - east signifies beginning of a day, which means human lives have beginning and conversely an end ("thou shalt surely die") as opposed to God's existence and eternal life in Him without beginning and end. So this is about being born as human, lust of the eyes, sin and being subject to moral law and death, which are all things inseparable from the very human nature.
In short, I believe there was no way that things would have played out differently. By having intellectual ability mankind was sure to question God at some point to their own detriment, and God did it anyway, because He wanted some intelligent creatures in His garden (aka created world; Eden metaphor is used to refer to its primordial, uncorrupted state; 4 rivers are physical but are also a metaphor for "4 corners of the Earth" and waters of life flowing from God's domain...)
What does discerning of good and evil mean? Most people think discerning of moral good and evil, but there are different uses of this pair in the Bible. I believe it's ability to know/discern all opposites (such as gain and loss). In some Bible verses good and evil are used in this way, both separately and paired up. Notice that when Eve decided that the fruit was good and desireable to make one wise, she already thought in her mind that to eat was gain, and to not eat was loss - didn't she discern already and sin already by coveting in her mind?
I think this discerning was the fruit in and of itself, which made the eyes open. The ability to discern also automatically makes one subject to moral law because they become able to judge, and so they immediately saw they were naked. The fruit is our discerning ability, as the name implies.
Now, although Adam and Eve were real ancestors in Messianic bloodline this also illustrates mankind all at once, and I think the story is an allegory. That doesn't mean that Adam and Eve weren't real people themselves. The skins represent acquiring physical bodies. The snake represents DNA, aka being born human (as opposed to animal) and having intellectual abilities (cunning above all beasts). Another forum member mentioned to me earlier that the number of the snake's words in the Bible matches the number of chromosomes. The snake is condemned to not have legs (walk upright) and indeed the flesh will never walk upright. They are cast out "east of Eden" - east signifies beginning of a day, which means human lives have beginning and conversely an end ("thou shalt surely die") as opposed to God's existence and eternal life in Him without beginning and end. So this is about being born as human, lust of the eyes, sin and being subject to moral law and death, which are all things inseparable from the very human nature.
In short, I believe there was no way that things would have played out differently. By having intellectual ability mankind was sure to question God at some point to their own detriment, and God did it anyway, because He wanted some intelligent creatures in His garden (aka created world; Eden metaphor is used to refer to its primordial, uncorrupted state; 4 rivers are physical but are also a metaphor for "4 corners of the Earth" and waters of life flowing from God's domain...)
So another thing that matters is what the garden is. It doesn't show in English, but looking through etymology garden and city are the same thing. This is evident in Slavic languages. Grad, gorod... means city. Gradina, garden. The root is grad-, to build. The city and the garden are one and the same, it is something that is built that is a place of life, aka the created world. And I am not drawing this from etymology alone. Otherwise, why would the temple have palms and flowers on the inside (which signify the garden) plus two cherubs, and we know that the temple represents the holy city of God.
Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
-
1
- Show all
God did not create the fall of humankind. How do you get that from my post 
?
God created everything good (tov). Tov also means functioning according to purpose. So before the fall of man everything was functioning according to the purpose God created them for. Just like us, when we are in God we will be functioning according to purpose.
Adam and Eve stepped out of that purpose when they sinned. It was a choice, just like it is a choice for us every day.
?God created everything good (tov). Tov also means functioning according to purpose. So before the fall of man everything was functioning according to the purpose God created them for. Just like us, when we are in God we will be functioning according to purpose.
Adam and Eve stepped out of that purpose when they sinned. It was a choice, just like it is a choice for us every day.
God did not create the fall of humankind. How do you get that from my post ?
God created everything good (tov). Tov also means functioning according to purpose. So before the fall of man everything was functioning according to the purpose God created them for. Just like us, when we are in God we will be functioning according to purpose.
Adam and Eve stepped out of that purpose when they sinned. It was a choice, just like it is a choice for us every day.
?God created everything good (tov). Tov also means functioning according to purpose. So before the fall of man everything was functioning according to the purpose God created them for. Just like us, when we are in God we will be functioning according to purpose.
Adam and Eve stepped out of that purpose when they sinned. It was a choice, just like it is a choice for us every day.
Of course God created the fall of mankind. He planted the tree that would then make the fall happen. He put the construct into play, that of sin and punishment. The rules.
Paradise Eden wasn't a paradise when Satan could slither into a tree that contained a tree that bore fruit that was evil. It was all God's creation. And when he looked upon it after he finished creating it all he judged it good.
God's foreknowledge insures the fall was also his creation. He has a zeal for his own glory and predestines all things. People talk about reading the bible in context. That goes further than reading a scripture in one chapter and reading the chapter so as to know how that one verse fits the narrative.
Context pertains to the entire picture the bible verse by verse creates so as to inform you of who God is and what this life is about as his responsibility.
Nothing happens without God knowing or letting it happen. Everything that happens is due to everything God made to work as he wills.
We aren't creators, God is.
Oh boy.
God did not create the fall mankind. He knew it was going to happen because He knew and understood the character of the enemy.
Predestination will make us all zombies. You have a choice every morning when you open your eyes if you are going to serve God or not. God know what you are going to choose but he didn’t brainwash you to make that decision.
It is like people blaming gog for getting cancer but they smoke 60 cigarettes a day.
Mankind fall because we have a worthy foe in Satan.
God did not create the fall mankind. He knew it was going to happen because He knew and understood the character of the enemy.
Predestination will make us all zombies. You have a choice every morning when you open your eyes if you are going to serve God or not. God know what you are going to choose but he didn’t brainwash you to make that decision.
It is like people blaming gog for getting cancer but they smoke 60 cigarettes a day.
Mankind fall because we have a worthy foe in Satan.
-
1
- Show all
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
Adam was created of the dust of the ground, and Eve made/taken from him. Some people believe they were created immortal but Scripture says that God alone is immortal. Whether they were created to be immortal is a different matter altogether, but, they did not eat of the Tree of Life, for if they had, they would not have died, and again, Scripture tells us that they were banished from the garden and the Tree of Life specifically so they could not eat of it and live forever. Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world. What does Jesus promise? Life more abundant. What is the outcome of faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus? Attaining to life ever after... being spared the everlasting second death. Adam and Eve needed Jesus (the Tree of Life) as much as we do, for He is the Light and Life of men.
Adam was created of the dust of the ground, and Eve made/taken from him. Some people believe they were created immortal but Scripture says that God alone is immortal. Whether they were created to be immortal is a different matter altogether, but, they did not eat of the Tree of Life, for if they had, they would not have died, and again, Scripture tells us that they were banished from the garden and the Tree of Life specifically so they could not eat of it and live forever. Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world. What does Jesus promise? Life more abundant. What is the outcome of faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus? Attaining to life ever after... being spared the everlasting second death. Adam and Eve needed Jesus (the Tree of Life) as much as we do, for He is the Light and Life of men.
-
2
- Show all
Hmm! That is really thought-provoking. I think the question here is that of free will which God freely gave to both angelic and the human race. The simple answer is Yes. God the creator of all things knew that if Man breaks his command it would take another sinless man for him to incarnate to redress the penalty or sin. And hence he had to come through Jesus Christ.
-
1
- Show all
This is a tough question I've asked myself plenty of times, not without feeling sort of guilty for judging somehow God's ways. Just today this came up in a conversation. The reasoning that has helped before and today as well is perhaps simple but helpful for me:
1) Just the mere fact that He made me with in a way I can 'question' Him or have (human) doubts just blows my mind and makes me humble before my Creator.
2) Satan tempted Eve by making Her not to trust God. And that is and will be my struggle probably until the ends of my days - I pray it'll have a victorious outcome every time!
3) In order to be saved, God asks exactly the opposite of us: to TRUST him with all our heart - and mind!
4) Kim Walker once said something like this: 'There're many things I'll never understand on Earth. Meanwhile, I don't want my offences to be on the way of my worshipping Him.' Offences here meaning 'not trusting Him', His good nature and kindness.
1) Just the mere fact that He made me with in a way I can 'question' Him or have (human) doubts just blows my mind and makes me humble before my Creator.
2) Satan tempted Eve by making Her not to trust God. And that is and will be my struggle probably until the ends of my days - I pray it'll have a victorious outcome every time!
3) In order to be saved, God asks exactly the opposite of us: to TRUST him with all our heart - and mind!
4) Kim Walker once said something like this: 'There're many things I'll never understand on Earth. Meanwhile, I don't want my offences to be on the way of my worshipping Him.' Offences here meaning 'not trusting Him', His good nature and kindness.