I would like some perspectives on Revelation.

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May 20, 2025
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TomCullen -- I guess I might be One of Those who did not know that!
I do know however; that Truth cannot be covered over with falseness. Where do people get this RAPTURE THING from?

Is not One who believes in what The Bible is saying, in need of someone who does not?
I could fly My Flag and let You know that I have taken a course, in MY younger days, to become a Pastor. But so what ! Truth comes from The Spirit Of God, not from men!
Deepseeker
 
May 20, 2025
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This is The Revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of The Devine mysteries].
Taken from The Amplified Bible.
Now, look at what the introduction to This Book says: This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His raveling of the divine mysteries.
THEN: That GOD GAVE TO HIM. TO DISCLOSE TO HIS BOND SERVANTS SERVANS THINHGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS.

Are We Today Hi servants? In no way! We are His chosen Ones. Yet many Today take The Book Of Revelation and try and force what is in It for Today!
This is how The Bible Scriptures get taken out of Their Time area!

DeepSeeker
 
Aug 22, 2024
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He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

…. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

…... He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:7, 17, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


have you noticed there are seven churches seven candles seven angels seven trumpets seven seals seven vials seven lamps of fire burning before the throne seven eyes of the lamb seven spirits of God seven horns upon the lamb ect ect ?

Or that two segments of time 3.5 and 3.5 is seven ? That the beast has seven heads that are seven kings that seven thunders speak ?

Do you think it’s possible there’s more meaning this matter than a literal number seven ?
Exactly
There were other churches at that time.
The 7 were representative of the church history we see now.
 
May 20, 2025
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One must seek to understand who, what scriptures, in The Bible are addressed to!
If those which are for Isreal only are taken and applied to Today; that creates GREAT ERROR!

Yet I see This happening often. IF Iwite a letter to Sam, and Jake reads It; and applies It to Himself, that may create a BIG PROBLEM for Jake! The same applies to The Bible Scriptures.

Seepseeker
 
Sep 2, 2020
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One must seek to understand who, what scriptures, in The Bible are addressed to!
If those which are for Isreal only are taken and applied to Today; that creates GREAT ERROR!

Yet I see This happening often. IF Iwite a letter to Sam, and Jake reads It; and applies It to Himself, that may create a BIG PROBLEM for Jake! The same applies to The Bible Scriptures.

Seepseeker
New Testament is all to the church Jew first and gentile after …..
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Exactly
There were other churches at that time.
The 7 were representative of the church history we see now.
Yeah seven seems to be based on the seven day creation including the sabbath. Sort of a number of completion but that’s only my opinion I don’t think we should take revelation which is actually “ apacolypse “ other than by considering the prior prophets , which give the images he was seeing , sensible meaning.

My opinion is that the prophets , like Ezekiel Zachariah Daniel for instance are good places to start learning what johns visions at Patmos meant . But it’s just my own take
 

Psalm1

Active member
Aug 22, 2024
344
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Yeah seven seems to be based on the seven day creation including the sabbath. Sort of a number of completion but that’s only my opinion I don’t think we should take revelation which is actually “ apacolypse “ other than by considering the prior prophets , which give the images he was seeing , sensible meaning.

My opinion is that the prophets , like Ezekiel Zachariah Daniel for instance are good places to start learning what johns visions at Patmos meant . But it’s just my own take
Hmmmmm....interesting!

One thing to note is that the order of the 7 churches,represent, or illustrate church history. (In part) ...IOW they are in chronological sequence.
If you change that order, that illustration is muddied up.

(A hidden dynamic in plain sight)
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Do you believe Revelation is literal, physical, spiritual, something in between, or just another completely different perspective! I would love to see your thoughts and your logic behind them.
Is it "literal"? Yes, I'd say everything we read actually happened/happens. John didn't imagine it. Within that context, were the literal things he experienced spiritual or physical? Well, I'd say most were spiritual (with exception)...and if spiritual, they're not going to play out the same way for our eyes in the physical. The physical fulfillment will look different than what's described in the spiritual. But there will always be signs or markers to match up the physical event with the spiritual description...but it all literally happens.

For example, Daniel saw four beasts in his vision. Similarly to John, he was also meditating in the spirit. The angel tells Daniel that these four beasts are four actual kingdoms (empires). We know that the one beast that looked like a lion with wings represented the Babylonian empire because the physical banner of the empire was a winged lion matching this spiritual vision.

Another example, Scripture explains that each kingdom/nation has a Principality (i.e., Archangel) that presides over it. Recall at another time that the angel Gabriel couldn't get to Daniel to explain a vision he had because he was resisted/prevented by the Princ(ipality) of Persia until he received help from Michael, the Princ(ipality) of Israel. In the physical, recall that the Persians took the Israelites captive after they conquered the Babylonians. Daniel had to deal with challenges like the lion's den, so you can imagine that being strong in God (Gabriel) during that time of tribulation was difficult. The spiritual is the true object, while its physical representation in our world is the shadow that the object casts in the presence of Light (The Almighty).

So in truth, the Babylonian kingdom was literally a winged lion in the spirit, but physically was what our historical records describe it looking like and having. So likewise, when we read of the four horsemen being sent out from heaven, those are truly spirits being sent out. But what do they look like in the physical? Actual wars and confrontations between nations, extreme poverty and hunger, strange diseases, followed by plagues & death.

[This is why I believe that a lot of the book has already happened physically in our world, especially in the case of the four horsemen. Humanity has suffered through 2 terrible world wars (with a 3rd one possibly triggered last weekend), poverty, plagues, and death since the first century. There isn't much left by my estimation.]

For another example, we see a seven-headed dragon in the sky, ready to devour the manchild that the woman with a crown of twelve stars will bear. If we follow the rules established in scripture for interpreting these spiritual visions, this is a summary of satan preparing to kill the messiah once He is born. But when He is taken to heaven, a war breaks out in heaven and satan is cast to earth, where he pursues and persecutes the descendants of Israel in revenge.

We know the first part of this physically happened in the gospels, as King Herod attempted to kill Christ when he was born. But the second part had a national/kingdom fulfillment because just like the Babylonian empire used the winged lion for its banner, the banner of the pagan Roman army was the draco (i.e., the dragon). Meanwhile, the nation of Israel was always called The Almighty's woman or wife in the scriptures, with 12 stars representing the 12 tribes. We know that Christ ascended in the first century, and history testifies to the constant persecution of the Israelites at the hands of Rome after Christ's ascension, which means satan has been kicked out of heaven for nearly 2000 years.

The book continues, saying a flood came out of the dragon's mouth to drown the woman, but the earth swallowed up the flood. Daniel 9:26 explains that Jerusalem will be destroyed by the army of the prince, "like a flood". So the spiritual flood is a physical army. History records that the army of pagan Rome wiped out Jerusalem like a tsunami and continued to persecute the Jews until invaders began attacking Rome and draining its strength, leading the empire to break into multiple nations (this was the physical fulfillment of the earth spiritually swallowing up the flood and becoming a sea).

Next in Rev 13, we read that a beast rises from that sea looking exactly like the dragon (with 7 heads), and the dragon gives his authority to the beast to persecute the saints as all the world marvels at the beast while it speaks blasphemies. Building on what we know, a beast is a kingdom. So this kingdom rose from the fall of pagan Rome, looking exactly like Rome. Pagan Rome gave its authority to this kingdom, and this kingdom began speaking blasphemies. History records that the Roman emperor gave authority to the bishop of Rome (i.e., the pope), and when Rome fell, the Holy Roman Empire rose to power with the Papacy (said to represent God in the flesh, called "Vicar of Christ") as its head. All the kings of the known world bowed to the pope while he passed religious policies that persecuted the Jews throughout the Middle Ages. He is also the one who authorized the Holy Wars, Inquisitions of "protestants", and slavery of "heretics" who did not convert to Roman catholicism, initiating the transatlantic slave trade.

"He that goes into captivity, into captivity he will go. He that is killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This is the patience of the saints."

The Pope's persecution continued from 538 AD to 1798 AD (1,260 physical years = 42 spiritual months), when the French ended the papacy. At the same time, another beast was emerging from the earth, which would assume the world-leading power of the first beast. What empire was born in a sparse land around the same time the papacy was ended (in the late 1700s)? Appearing innocent like a lamb, with two horns of authority, but speaking like a dragon? Who developed the power to call fire down from heaven (Heaven = Uranos = Uranium)? Who developed the power to give life to the image (i.e., life to the image = animate the image = motion pictures)? Causing all who will not worship the beast should be killed (i.e., propagandizes through media to make enemies of the non-compliant)...

---

So literal, but spiritual...and it's on us to match it up with the physical using the rules established in scripture.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,128
3,375
113
Is it "literal"? Yes, I'd say everything we read actually happened/happens. John didn't imagine it. Within that context, were the literal things he experienced spiritual or physical? Well, I'd say most were spiritual (with exception)...and if spiritual, they're not going to play out the same way for our eyes in the physical. The physical fulfillment will look different than what's described in the spiritual. But there will always be signs or markers to match up the physical event with the spiritual description...but it all literally happens.

For example, Daniel saw four beasts in his vision. Similarly to John, he was also meditating in the spirit. The angel tells Daniel that these four beasts are four actual kingdoms (empires). We know that the one beast that looked like a lion with wings represented the Babylonian empire because the physical banner of the empire was a winged lion matching this spiritual vision.

Another example, Scripture explains that each kingdom/nation has a Principality (i.e., Archangel) that presides over it. Recall at another time that the angel Gabriel couldn't get to Daniel to explain a vision he had because he was resisted/prevented by the Princ(ipality) of Persia until he received help from Michael, the Princ(ipality) of Israel. In the physical, recall that the Persians took the Israelites captive after they conquered the Babylonians. Daniel had to deal with challenges like the lion's den, so you can imagine that being strong in God (Gabriel) during that time of tribulation was difficult. The spiritual is the true object, while its physical representation in our world is the shadow that the object casts in the presence of Light (The Almighty).

So in truth, the Babylonian kingdom was literally a winged lion in the spirit, but physically was what our historical records describe it looking like and having. So likewise, when we read of the four horsemen being sent out from heaven, those are truly spirits being sent out. But what do they look like in the physical? Actual wars and confrontations between nations, extreme poverty and hunger, strange diseases, followed by plagues & death.

[This is why I believe that a lot of the book has already happened physically in our world, especially in the case of the four horsemen. Humanity has suffered through 2 terrible world wars (with a 3rd one possibly triggered last weekend), poverty, plagues, and death since the first century. There isn't much left by my estimation.]

For another example, we see a seven-headed dragon in the sky, ready to devour the manchild that the woman with a crown of twelve stars will bear. If we follow the rules established in scripture for interpreting these spiritual visions, this is a summary of satan preparing to kill the messiah once He is born. But when He is taken to heaven, a war breaks out in heaven and satan is cast to earth, where he pursues and persecutes the descendants of Israel in revenge.

We know the first part of this physically happened in the gospels, as King Herod attempted to kill Christ when he was born. But the second part had a national/kingdom fulfillment because just like the Babylonian empire used the winged lion for its banner, the banner of the pagan Roman army was the draco (i.e., the dragon). Meanwhile, the nation of Israel was always called The Almighty's woman or wife in the scriptures, with 12 stars representing the 12 tribes. We know that Christ ascended in the first century, and history testifies to the constant persecution of the Israelites at the hands of Rome after Christ's ascension, which means satan has been kicked out of heaven for nearly 2000 years.

The book continues, saying a flood came out of the dragon's mouth to drown the woman, but the earth swallowed up the flood. Daniel 9:26 explains that Jerusalem will be destroyed by the army of the prince, "like a flood". So the spiritual flood is a physical army. History records that the army of pagan Rome wiped out Jerusalem like a tsunami and continued to persecute the Jews until invaders began attacking Rome and draining its strength, leading the empire to break into multiple nations (this was the physical fulfillment of the earth spiritually swallowing up the flood and becoming a sea).

Next in Rev 13, we read that a beast rises from that sea looking exactly like the dragon (with 7 heads), and the dragon gives his authority to the beast to persecute the saints as all the world marvels at the beast while it speaks blasphemies. Building on what we know, a beast is a kingdom. So this kingdom rose from the fall of pagan Rome, looking exactly like Rome. Pagan Rome gave its authority to this kingdom, and this kingdom began speaking blasphemies. History records that the Roman emperor gave authority to the bishop of Rome (i.e., the pope), and when Rome fell, the Holy Roman Empire rose to power with the Papacy (said to represent God in the flesh, called "Vicar of Christ") as its head. All the kings of the known world bowed to the pope while he passed religious policies that persecuted the Jews throughout the Middle Ages. He is also the one who authorized the Holy Wars, Inquisitions of "protestants", and slavery of "heretics" who did not convert to Roman catholicism, initiating the transatlantic slave trade.

"He that goes into captivity, into captivity he will go. He that is killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This is the patience of the saints."

The Pope's persecution continued from 538 AD to 1798 AD (1,260 physical years = 42 spiritual months), when the French ended the papacy. At the same time, another beast was emerging from the earth, which would assume the world-leading power of the first beast. What empire was born in a sparse land around the same time the papacy was ended (in the late 1700s)? Appearing innocent like a lamb, with two horns of authority, but speaking like a dragon? Who developed the power to call fire down from heaven (Heaven = Uranos = Uranium)? Who developed the power to give life to the image (i.e., life to the image = animate the image = motion pictures)? Causing all who will not worship the beast should be killed (i.e., propagandizes through media to make enemies of the non-compliant)...

---

So literal, but spiritual...and it's on us to match it up with the physical using the rules established in scripture.
Glad to see you around again. :)