I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

[john832]

The real issue with the question is WHEN are we saved? We are saved at the resurrection, at the return of Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

adding to this...

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

We are saved at the return of Christ, at the first resurrection. At that point, we are once saved, always saved because we have become immortal as I Cor 15 says, until then we can be lost...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Jimbone]

The “Calvinistic loophole.” Based purely on men’s assumption—not God or scripture.

What are you talking about?
"19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Was John just writing his opinion? Is he Calvinist scum too?

 

[Cameron143]

What are you talking about?
"19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Was John just writing his opinion? Is he Calvinist scum too?

I always had my suspicions about him. And don't get me started on Paul.

 

[Beckworth]

.
Jesus has been tasked with tending a number of very special sheep.

● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that
he "always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the
One most of the time, but certainly not always without fail.

People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when
they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father
gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the
skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.

● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no,
he'd have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be
saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says
shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident Christ
is that he will lose nothing of those that the One gave him.

FAQ: Why can't the sheep change their minds about following Christ and
leave him to follow someone else?

REPLY: Animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic.

The thing is: a rancher's free will trumps his herd's free will; and the
rancher's brand burned into the animals' skins indelibly identify them with
their owner. So be advised: once someone makes the decision to unify with
Christ, they relinquish whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large,
viz: they become Christ's property, and there's no going back because he
and his Father play for keeps. In other words: in order for the sheep to free
themselves from Christ, they would need to overpower not only him but his
Father also; which isn't likely.

● John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

● Eph 1:13 . . In him you also-- who have heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him --were sealed with the
promised Holy Spirit.
_

And yet, Jesus lost one! Luke 15. And Jesus tells the story himself. John 10 is talking about sheep being stolen or “snatched” away; which does not even apply to what we are discussing. Luke 15 is about sheep leaving of their own free will and being lost; which is exactly what this thread is about. I think anyone can see the difference.

 

[Beckworth]

What are you talking about?
"19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Was John just writing his opinion? Is he Calvinist scum too?

Well, first of all, John could not possibly be “Calvinist scum” ( your words, not mine) because this was 1500 years before anyone ever heard of his doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. That one fact ought to be enough to prove that this doctrine is not part of the gospel of Christ. Any “new” belief that was not around in the first century can’t be from God—or don’t you believe that 2 Tim 3:16 is true?

Second, 1John 2:19 actually proves MY argument, not yours. If the people in 1John 2 that he is talking about were at one time part of Christ, He says “with us,” “of us”, then they were Christians. He said they did not “CONTINUE” with US. So you
Agree that these were Christians, who at one time were part of His disciples but they LEFT!! They, of their own free will LEFT Christ. This proves MY point—that a Christian can “fall away” or leave, of his own free will, and be lost! Now, their sincerity will have to be judged by God. He is the only one who can read hearts and minds. It is not for you or me to judge them. And it really doesn’t matter WHY they were lost — the point is, can they or can they NOT be lost? This proves that they can indeed be lost. Whether they were sincere when they were converted to Christ or hypocrites, makes no difference to me—We must leave that to Christ to know.

Also, the scriptures teach that whereas some disciples leave physically, as in 1 John 19, Matthew 7 proves that some disciples leave Christ SPIRITUALLY. Christians who practice “lawlessness” Matthew 7:23, or who don’t abide in the doctrine of Christ 1 John 9 are also lost, and God is not with them and Jesus said I NEVER knew you but it may not have been evident to others because they did not physically LEAVE the family of God. So, yes, 1John 2 shows Christian’s who went through the motions of being saved, but left of their own free will, and were lost! My position is that Christians, who have done what God says to be saved—they have to have done this or else they could not have “been WITH Christ; could not be “part of Christ”, could not have been “OF US” as John says—can leave of their own free will; Christians CAN BE LOST. Thank you for proving my point. Now are we in agreement?

 

[Beckworth]

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE UNSAVED!!! once saved, always saved. learn 1st John 5:13. if you could be unsaved, then you could get saved again & it can become a revolving issue. DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.!!! think of the word "saved". there's no meaning of unsaved in the word saved.

Luke 15 is the story Jesus told of a “lost sheep” (Lost spiritually) who “repented” and was restored to the fold of God.

Luke 15 is also the story of a “son” of God who leaves his FATHER and is “lost”. But “comes to himself (senses), repents, and returned to his Father. God even tells us there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. Likewise the parable of the “lost” coin. Thus whole chapter is Jesus telling stories that illustrate how a child of God can be lost, but if they will repent, can be RESTORED to salvation. You are listening to men and believing a false doctrine OVER what God tells us plainly in His word.

 

[Beckworth]

Summed up the problem I found with losing salvation perfectly. You think you saved yourself so you think you can unsave yourself. Both are untrue. You do not have near the power you think you do. God has ALL power.

I am amazed you can read people’s minds and hearts to know what they think! Doesn’t God tell us NOT TO JUDGE people’s hearts and motives—I thought only He could do that.

 

[Beckworth]

I always had my suspicions about him. And don't get me started on Paul.

I must admit, this made me laugh. (I didn’t think anything on this thread could do that.)

 

[Magenta]

1 John 2:19

 

[Cameron143]

Luke 15 is the story Jesus told of a “lost sheep” (Lost spiritually) who “repented” and was restored to the fold of God.

Luke 15 is also the story of a “son” of God who leaves his FATHER and is “lost”. But “comes to himself (senses), repents, and returned to his Father. God even tells us there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. Likewise the parable of the “lost” coin. Thus whole chapter is Jesus telling stories that illustrate how a child of God can be lost, but if they will repent, can be RESTORED to salvation. You are listening to men and believing a false doctrine OVER what God tells us plainly in His word.

So...a young man who detests his father and engages in immoral practices is saved? Was the child who didn't leave also saved?
No one is saved without becoming a partaker of the Holy Spirit. And those who are genuinely saved evidence fruit produced by the Spirit. Where do you find evidence of this in either child.
There are many who associate themselves with God who aren't saved.

 

[Magenta]

What are you talking about?
"19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have
continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Was John just writing his opinion? Is he Calvinist scum too?

It's amazing how blind some are to the fact that the verse PLAINLY says they
were not of us, which is why they eventually left, or did not continue on.
They talk as if anyone who sits in a pew is saved by virtue of sitting in a pew.

 

[Cameron143]

I must admit, this made me laugh. (I didn’t think anything on this thread could do that.)

Mission accomplished.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: who believes the truly saved can be truly UNsaved?

Many believe as Clearly Shown by many comments, eh? However:

It matters not 'what Many men believe', But Only What God Teaches, Correct?:

In God's "Revelation Of The Mystery", For us, The Body Of Christ, Under Grace, He
Has Given Plain and Clear, In A Vast Multitude Of His Scriptures, His Word Of Truth:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Oh LORD, When will we ever learn? Amen.

 

[Karlon]

It's amazing how blind some are to the fact that the verse PLAINLY says they
were not of us, which is why they eventually left, or did not continue on.
They talk as if anyone who sits in a pew is saved by virtue of sitting in a pew.

Psalms 145:18 John 9:31 correlate.

 

[MeowFlower]

I suggest ignoring anyone who insists we can become condemned again,lose our salvation. It isn't Biblical and the very argument culminates in declaring Jesus,God,a liar.

Consider these teachings compiled from scripture. (What Christian insists they're not saved?)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This tells us that an individual who comes to faith is being acted upon by the word of God.

yeah it tells us the word of Jesus Christ gives faith to those who believe him , that’s one of my points. Consider that concept with this word from God

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( one option )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( the other option )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

neither is being forced by God it’s an offer to everyone of salvation some will hear it and believe others won’t

or this word from God

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or even this word from God

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

faith comes to us when we hear and accept the gospel , the word of our lord that gives life .

When Jesus says something like “ unless you repent you’ll also perish like all sinners “

That’s faith being extended in his word it will o Lu benefit those who hear and accept it as truth…..

What your saying doesn’t change anything in our conversation we have to hear and as your saying act on what God said his word is faith we can accept it and live or reject it and be judged by it

 

[Cameron143]

yeah it tells us the word of Jesus Christ gives faith to those who believe him , that’s one of my points. Consider that concept with this word from God

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( one option )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( the other option )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

neither is being forced by God it’s an offer to everyone of salvation some will hear it and believe others won’t

or this word from God

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or even this word from God

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

faith comes to us when we hear and accept the gospel , the word of our lord that gives life .

When Jesus says something like “ unless you repent you’ll also perish like all sinners “

That’s faith being extended in his word it will o Lu benefit those who hear and accept it as truth…..

What your saying doesn’t change anything in our conversation we have to hear and as your saying act on what God said his word is faith we can accept it and live or reject it and be judged by it

I'm suggesting that there is spititual activity that transpires when faith is the response to the word of God.

Every Sunday across this nation the gospel is preached. Much prayer is made that these preachers are given inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that the hearts of listeners are made ready to receive the truth of the gospel. After, a prayer might be made that God's word will not return to Him void but will accomplish what it was sent to do. Why is all this done if a person can just come to faith by themselves?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm suggesting that there is spititual activity that transpires when faith is the response to the word of God.

Every Sunday across this nation the gospel is preached. Much prayer is made that these preachers are given inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that the hearts of listeners are made ready to receive the truth of the gospel. After, a prayer might be made that God's word will not return to Him void but will accomplish what it was sent to do. Why is all this done if a person can just come to faith by themselves?

“Why is all this done if a person can just come to faith by themselves?”

Gods word gives faith to those who accept it. That’s not saying “ people somehow come to faith by themselves “

brother God has always from the beginning only spoken to us and then how we respond to what he said that determines the result


In simple ways it’s easy to see

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. ( gods word )

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”( a man who hears and believed and acted in faith )
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses acted in faith because he believed what God said to him , he acted and the result came by faith.

if moses had said “ I believe in you lord “ but then he didn’t act according to Gods word of faith …. The result wouldn’t have come he acted because he heard God speak and believed in him , so therefore he acted upon it

faith comes when we begin to hear and believe the Gospel of the lord. We aren’t waiting for the thing Gods gonna do to make us believe ….he’s already done it now our place is to hear his word and believe in him or as the apostle would say “ walk by faith “

“I'm suggesting that there is spititual activity that transpires when faith is the response to the word of God. “

faith isn’t the response the word itself is faith as we accept it. Faith is the gift we receive when we hear and believe, and faith them becomes active our part is to accept what he actually taught us to believe and act upon in the gospel.


Look at the transaction of faith and see the result here ? The whole operation

“And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: and they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As they heard gods word and acted upon it …they were cleansed even before they completed the job on the way they were cleansed. Gods word , believing enough to act equals a step in faith

Its always the same ot and new

“that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,

thou shalt be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see the invite to the person hearing it ?” If you do this and this , you will be saved “

Or how about here

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( action )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( result)

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38

Its always the same Gods word is preached , people hear, it some believe and act upon it , some don’t believe it so they of course don’t act in it it’s. Ot something they believe . There’s an order the gospel has to be heard and then a person can believe it and respond

 

[Cameron143]

“Why is all this done if a person can just come to faith by themselves?”

Gods word gives faith to those who accept it. That’s not saying “ people somehow come to faith by themselves “

brother God has always from the beginning only spoken to us and then how we respond to what he said that determines the result


In simple ways it’s easy to see

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. ( gods word )

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”( a man who hears and believed and acted in faith )
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses acted in faith because he believed what God said to him , he acted and the result came by faith.

if moses had said “ I believe in you lord “ but then he didn’t act according to Gods word of faith …. The result wouldn’t have come he acted because he heard God speak and believed in him , so therefore he acted upon it

faith comes when we begin to hear and believe the Gospel of the lord. We aren’t waiting for the thing Gods gonna do to make us believe ….he’s already done it now our place is to hear his word and believe in him or as the apostle would say “ walk by faith “

“I'm suggesting that there is spititual activity that transpires when faith is the response to the word of God. “

faith isn’t the response the word itself is faith as we accept it. Faith is the gift we receive when we hear and believe, and faith them becomes active our part is to accept what he actually taught us to believe and act upon in the gospel.


Look at the transaction of faith and see the result here ? The whole operation

“And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: and they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As they heard gods word and acted upon it …they were cleansed even before they completed the job on the way they were cleansed. Gods word , believing enough to act equals a step in faith

Its always the same ot and new

“that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,

thou shalt be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see the invite to the person hearing it ?” If you do this and this , you will be saved “

Or how about here

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( action )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( result)

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38

Its always the same Gods word is preached , people hear, it some believe and act upon it , some don’t believe it so they of course don’t act in it it’s. Ot something they believe . There’s an order the gospel has to be heard and then a person can believe it and respond

Just a simple question: what produces faith...the word of God or an individual's response?

 

[timemeddler]

Asking people what the think is necessary to lose salvation might give more interesting answers. There have been some real doozys on the subject before.