"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[cv5]

As usual you are shown wrong, but instead of humility you choose to double down by inferring things on my behalf while employing language designed to make my ideas seem unusually unreasonable.
As this makes a fruitful and spiritual exchange unlikely, I'll bid you a blessed day.

Bailing out is your specialty. Exiting the field when you see the game is lost is your consistent pattern of conduct around here.

And another thing......did you ever consider to undergird your argument with actual verses and passages? I mean, that is how it should be done......right?

In any case, I will take the victory by default. Nothing wrong with winning. Jesus does it all the time. Like every time.

 

[Cameron143]

Bailing out is your specialty. Exiting the field when you see the game is lost is your consistent pattern of conduct around here.

And another thing......did you ever consider to undergird your argument with actual verses and passages? I mean, that is how it should be done......right?

In any case, I will take the victory by default. Nothing wrong with winning. Jesus does it all the time. Like every time.

Jesus victories were victories for all. I gave 3 verses in Revelation 1. No one has shown that those verses weren't first century. No matter how good an argument may seem, if it begins in error, everything following will be in error.

 

[cv5]

i invite you to read the full chapter of Iraneus and see that the context bears out the plain reading.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm

Iraneus without any doubt holds a 'futurist' view of Revelation - as did literally the entire church until, after the reformation, a Jesuit invented preterism in order to defend the papacy from interpretations that cast it as the harlot riding the beast.

Absolutely correct. It's high time we pickled that red herring once and for all........

 

[cv5]

Jesus victories were victories for all. I gave 3 verses in Revelation 1. No one has shown that those verses weren't first century. No matter how good an argument may seem, if it begins in error, everything following will be in error.

If your premise is that 3 verses in Revelation Ch 1 obviates and nullifies the rest of the book and the MASSIVE quantities of age-old and NT prophecies predicting the future DOTL 70th week of Daniel tribulation, then you are once again......wrong.

 

[Cameron143]

If your premise is that 3 verses in Revelation Ch 1 obviates and nullifies the rest of the book and the MASSIVE quantities of age-old and NT prophecies predicting the future DOTL 70th week of Daniel tribulation, then you are once again......wrong.

It doesn't nullify anything. It merely gives a time frame.

 

[Komentaja]

I believe the majority of what was prophesied in Revelation occurred in the first century. I recognize that this isn't the prevailing view of our time. I think we forget sometimes that the Bible , though timeless, had an original intended audience and the simple and plain reading of scripture is generally the most accurate.

I would again agree but if the Bible says:

SOON this will happen, but then it also mentions details like EVERYONE being judged, Jesus coming in the clouds, every eye seeing Him, such tribulation that no flesh would be saved if the days werent shortened, worldwide beast rule etc...... I think its no longer plain and simple reading of the text to say "Well it says soon there, so audience relevancy should be taken into account and it all happened back then" CLEARLY this did not happen back then, history is crystal clear on that. Because at the END of this AD70 should have been the Israel being SAVED instead of them being SCATTERED among the nations.

I think you would have a MASSIVE hurdle to try to explain this to any 1st or 2nd century Christian. Because none of them seemed to believe that it was all done in AD70.

 

[cv5]

No one missed it. Jerusalem was basically leveled. God sent His servants and then His Son. They killed them all. What do you think was their end?

Oh....and BTW, "they" most certainly did NOT kill all the prophets. Not by a longshot.

Moses, David, Daniel, Elijah were not killed by their audiences, among many others.

 

[Cameron143]

I would again agree but if the Bible says:

SOON this will happen, but then it also mentions details like EVERYONE being judged, Jesus coming in the clouds, every eye seeing Him, such tribulation that no flesh would be saved if the days werent shortened, worldwide beast rule etc...... I think its no longer plain and simple reading of the text to say "Well it says soon there, so audience relevancy should be taken into account and it all happened back then" CLEARLY this did not happen back then, history is crystal clear on that. Because at the END of this AD70 should have been the Israel being SAVED instead of them being SCATTERED among the nations.

I think you would have a MASSIVE hurdle to try to explain this to any 1st or 2nd century Christian. Because none of them seemed to believe that it was all done in AD70.

It's not hard at all. What's hard is to get people today to allow scripture to say what it originally said given their propensity to believe all they have been taught.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh....and BTW, "they" most certainly did NOT kill all the prophets. Not by a longshot.

Moses, David, Daniel, Elijah were not killed by their audiences, among many others.

Again, you should read the parable Jesus told concerning the matter. They filled up the measure of their fathers. All is all the prophets they killed.

 

[Komentaja]

It's not hard at all. What's hard is to get people today to allow scripture to say what it originally said given their propensity to believe all they have been taught.

Then when did the following occur:

1. Resurrection
2. Jesus coming in glory
3. The saints returning with him

To name a FEW things, in reality there is much more......... If it aint hard at all, let us know. I got no "need" to believe any sort of way about eschatology, I just cannot read the word "soon" or "this generation" and then just automatically believe that all of the above happened during the 1st century, when not even the Christians in the 1st and 2nd centuries believed such a thing! They still believed it was future.

The fact is, if AD70 was the return of Jesus, it also means the resurrection already came and went and guess what, you and I missed it, where the new earth at? This place sucks!

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It is amazing how everything is 'solved' and falls into place when you put all of it in the proper order and at the right time..

Amen! Especially with God's 'Approval':

( earthly ) prophecy / covenants / law for Israel ( Prominent ):

Christ came to "none but the lost sheep of the house of ( His Body? ) Israel
( twelve ) tribes ( nation )," with the 'gospel of the kingdom' commissioned to
twelve apostles, and then ( after the one-year fig tree parable Luk 13:7-9 ):

Israel fell... But ( this context of God is Now 'on hold' ) ...to be continued...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Current ( Heavenly ) Context (Romans - Philemon):

Mystery / Grace to Jews and Gentiles ( Now Equal ):

God Having Mercy On all ( as 'individuals' ), with His 'Gospel Of Grace'
Which:

( Spiritually ) Baptizes, By ONE Baptism, By The One Spirit, new-born babes
Into the One Body [ The "One New man" (Ephesians 2:15) ] Of Christ
( Wherein there is "No longer 'Jew nor Gentile' ), and:

which 'creation' began (Acts 9; 2Co 5:17) with Paul [ our 'pattern' (1Ti 1:16) ],
God's One Grace apostle.

This Context ''Ends" with God's Great GRACE Departure! Of Said 'Body' To Heaven!!

so that...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

...on earth, God continues: prophecy / covenants / law for His Twelve tribes of
Israel ( Again Prominent ):

please insert all of your 'prophetic end-time eschatology' information​

( from Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation ) here, culminating with the Second​

( prophesied ) Coming Of The LORD Jesus Christ, To Be "The KING Of Israel,"​

and His Kingdom, on earth!​

------------------

"Study to show thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!" (2 Timothy 2:15)

= Plain and simply 'solved' for me, anyway...

Amen.

 

[cv5]

Again, you should read the parable Jesus told concerning the matter. They filled up the measure of their fathers. All is all the prophets they killed.

Correct. Precise, concise grammar would clean up your posts.

 

[cv5]

It's not hard at all. What's hard is to get people today to allow scripture to say what it originally said given their propensity to believe all they have been taught.

Evidently, what is hard is to get people to look out their window and see that the "end-time" prophetic stage is being set.....right now today.

Israel the nation has been reformed and is in the land. A gigantic 800lbs gorilla in the room "sign" to the universe. Wake up everybody.
And the slightest geopolitical re-jiggering and UP GOES THE TEMPLE.

 

[Cameron143]

Then when did the following occur:

1. Resurrection
2. Jesus coming in glory
3. The saints returning with him

To name a FEW things, in reality there is much more......... If it aint hard at all, let us know. I got no "need" to believe any sort of way about eschatology, I just cannot read the word "soon" or "this generation" and then just automatically believe that all of the above happened during the 1st century, when not even the Christians in the 1st and 2nd centuries believed such a thing! They still believed it was future.

The fact is, if AD70 was the return of Jesus, it also means the resurrection already came and went and guess what, you and I missed it, where the new earth at? This place sucks!

Yes Jesus did return circa 70 AD. The promised rapture of believers occurred before the destruction of Israel. We were never intended to be rapture. We aren't in any danger. The only reason you believe in a future rapture is because you believe a great tribulation remains. How different would your outlook be if you believed it had already occurred?

This is why I said the hard part wasn't explaining, but getting people beyond their tightly held beliefs. Notice what the questions you asked me already assumed about how things occurred.

And my sincere apologies if you think I judged you in any way with my comments. I was merely pointing out what I have experienced at times when sharing differing points of view. I have enjoyed our exchange and find your manner of discourse very respectful.

 

[Cameron143]

Correct. Precise, concise grammar would clean up your posts.

My apologies. But you did jump the middle of a discussion and the poster to whom the post was directed understood clearly.

 

[Cameron143]

Evidently, what is hard is to get people to look out their window and see that the "end-time" prophetic stage is being set.....right now today.

Israel the nation has been reformed and is in the land. A gigantic 800lbs gorilla in the room "sign" to the universe. Wake up everybody.
And the slightest geopolitical re-jiggering and UP GOES THE TEMPLE.

Fitting your understanding of prophecy to current events is the surest way to go wrong. Using the OT language and how it was employed explains prophecy.

 

[Komentaja]

Yes Jesus did return circa 70 AD. The promised rapture of believers occurred before the destruction of Israel. We were never intended to be rapture. We aren't in any danger. The only reason you believe in a future rapture is because you believe a great tribulation remains. How different would your outlook be if you believed it had already occurred?

This is why I said the hard part wasn't explaining, but getting people beyond their tightly held beliefs. Notice what the questions you asked me already assumed about how things occurred.

And my sincere apologies if you think I judged you in any way with my comments. I was merely pointing out what I have experienced at times when sharing differing points of view. I have enjoyed our exchange and find your manner of discourse very respectful.

Resurrection already took place? So now we are in the new heaven and new earth? I don't think so. The world is in a terrible spot and even humans can do better than this, let alone God.

Atleast you are consistent in your preterism, so I respect that. But I will never agree with what you believe so and consider it in error, but have a good day and God bless you. I wont debate it, just wanted to hear whats what.

 

[cv5]

Fitting your understanding of prophecy to current events is the surest way to go wrong. Using the OT language and how it was employed explains prophecy.

Except when Jesus warns His people to flee Jerusalem when they SEE it being surrounded by armies. Like in real time.

 

[cv5]

Yes Jesus did return circa 70 AD. The promised rapture of believers occurred before the destruction of Israel. We were never intended to be rapture. We aren't in any danger. The only reason you believe in a future rapture is because you believe a great tribulation remains. How different would your outlook be if you believed it had already occurred?

This is why I said the hard part wasn't explaining, but getting people beyond their tightly held beliefs. Notice what the questions you asked me already assumed about how things occurred.

And my sincere apologies if you think I judged you in any way with my comments. I was merely pointing out what I have experienced at times when sharing differing points of view. I have enjoyed our exchange and find your manner of discourse very respectful.

Have the covenants to Abraham been fulfilled? No.

Has Israel been redeemed? No.

Why? Because the 70th week has yet to begin.

Your view of the rapture is likewise beyond bizarre and absurd. As if the lucky 1st century Christians hit the rapture jackpot and the rest of us get kicked to the curb.

Overall.....you have a "kicked to the curb" eschatology. Israel gets kicked to the curb and so does the latter day Church. Ridiculous.

 

[Cameron143]

Have the covenants to Abraham been fulfilled? No.

Has Israel been redeemed? No.

Why? Because the 70th week has yet to begin.

Your view of the rapture is likewise beyond bizarre and absurd. As if the lucky 1st century Christians hit the rapture jackpot and the rest of us get kicked to the curb.

Overall.....you have a "kicked to the curb" eschatology. Israel gets kicked to the curb and so does the latter day Church. Ridiculous.

Your lack of understanding doesn't negate truth. I never claimed everything has been fulfilled so your assertions again are false. Back to your usual tactics. Have a great day.