I And My Father Are One

[Live4Him3]

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬‬

Again, whose point are you trying to prove?

As before, you've only proven mine.

Here, three are described as being "one" AS IN UNITED.

For crying out loud, have you never read the following?

John chapter 17

[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

When Jesus prayed that we may be one, EVEN AS he and the Father are one, was he praying for you to become God?

In your crazy belief, apparently he was.

Well, he wasn't.

Instead, he was praying that we would walk in unity with God EVEN AS he and the Father walk in unity.

That's reality, so you might as well embrace it.

 

[Live4Him3]

It goes without saying the Father and the Son are one in purpose but John 10:30 is teaching the fact that the Father and the Son are one in nature/essence. Jesus has just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father.

Jesus asserted the essential unity of the Father and the Son in the word "one" (hen). It is a neuter number to indicate equality of essence, attributes, design, will and work. Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." In other words the verse literally reads, "I and the Father WE are one." These words separate the persons of the Godhead, but "one" asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.

The reason this is true is based on the following verses and the reaction of the Jews. Vs31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why? Vs32, "Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You , but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man make Yourself out God." A person is not stoned or committing blasphemy for simply being one in purpose.

At vs34 Jesus is being His own commentator, how? He brings up Psalm 82:6 which is about "god," not one in purpose. From verses 35 through 38 I'm going to leave open ended and ask what point was Jesus trying to make in this exchange by Him bringing up Psalm 82:6?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

If your intended point is that both Jesus and the Father are God, then I have no problem with that whatsoever because they both are God.

That said, they are still not the same person.

 

[wattie]

Whose point are you trying to prove?

Mine or yours?

You've only proven mine.

The Word was WITH GOD, and the Word WAS GOD.

There are clearly two different persons (for lack of a better word) being identified as "God" here.

Do you deny the Triune Godhead?

Seemingly, you do.

If so, then the entire Bible testifies against you, starting with Genesis 1:1 in which "God" is introduced in the PLURAL as "elohim".

The block I have, is in persons..I visualize seperate beings.

In heaven I believe we will see one being... God and not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit separately.

That's the trouble I have with the term persons.

The 3 may be distinct manifestations of God... but they are not seperate.

And I'm not talking modalism btw... God doesn't hop in and out of each manifestation/essence. He is all 3 at the same time.

I dunno.. I guess persons would be fine if no one is talking about seperate beings.

 

[Live4Him3]

"I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)

Again, Jesus wasn't saying that he and his Father were "one" as in being the same person.

In fact, earlier in the same gospel of John, Jesus is recorded as saying the following:

John chapter 8

[17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
[18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus and his Father are two witnesses because they are not the same person.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you think that a father and his son are the same person, then you're literally out of your mind.

Here is why Jesus is referred to as "the everlasting Father":

John chapter 5

[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Again:

John chapter 14

[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

During his incarnation, Jesus only did the works that he saw his Father do, and he only spoke the words that he heard his Father speak. As the author of the epistle to the Hebrews rightly noted, Jesus is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3), with the "his" being the Father in heaven.

With such being the case, to see or to hear Jesus is to see or to hear the Father.

Again, if you believe that a Father and his son are the same person, then go and get your head examined.

Seriously, you're out of your mind.

“If you think that a father and his son are the same person, then you're literally out of your mind.”

you sound like Philip

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


if your looking at Jesus and wondering who the father is or wanting to meet the father , your missing the point of the gospel

“I and my Father are one.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

the same God in heaven became a man on earth because there was no worthy man to intercede for us .

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God became flesh and blood nee could know him and hear his word of salvation

“As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭47:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:3, 8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He came to walk among us and then returned to his eternal Glory having provided a perfect intercession for mankind

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What your seeing is Jesus making himself subject to God because all
Men are he’s the example of a perfect man while he’s on earth subject to God as man is and always will be

 

[Live4Him3]

The block I have, is in persons..I visualize seperate beings.

In heaven I believe we will see one being... God and not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit separately.

That's the trouble I have with the term persons.

The 3 may be distinct manifestations of God... but they are not seperate.

And I'm not talking modalism btw... God doesn't hop in and out of each manifestation/essence. He is all 3 at the same time.

I dunno.. I guess persons would be fine if no one is talking about seperate beings.

I used the term "persons" for lack of a better word.

Anyhow, Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand in heaven, and he is the only mediator between God the Father and men.

He is not the Father. He walks in perfect unison with the Father, so, again, he is the express image of his person, but he and the Father are not the same person (again, for lack of a better term).

He is the Son.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

If you think that a father and his son are the same person, then you're literally out of your mind.

Here is why Jesus is referred to as "the everlasting Father":

John chapter 5

[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Again:

John chapter 14

[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

During his incarnation, Jesus only did the works that he saw his Father do, and he only spoke the words that he heard his Father speak. As the author of the epistle to the Hebrews rightly noted, Jesus is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3), with the "his" being the Father in heaven.

With such being the case, to see or to hear Jesus is to see or to hear the Father.

Again, if you believe that a Father and his son are the same person, then go and get your head examined.

Seriously, you're out of your mind.

Find the verse where Jesus says, "I am not the Father"

 

[Live4Him3]

“If you think that a father and his son are the same person, then you're literally out of your mind.”

you sound like Philip

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


if your looking at Jesus and wondering who the father is or wanting to meet the father , your missing the point of the gospel

“I and my Father are one.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

the same God in heaven became a man on earth because there was no worthy man to intercede for us .

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God became flesh and blood nee could know him and hear his word of salvation

“As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭47:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:3, 8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He came to walk among us and then returned to his eternal Glory having provided a perfect intercession for mankind

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What your seeing is Jesus making himself subject to God because all
Men are he’s the example of a perfect man while he’s on earth subject to God as man is and always will be

So, you believe that when Jesus prayed that we would be one EVEN AS he and the Father are one he was praying for you to become God.

Good to know.

Now, you've only got two options with that HERETICAL belief:

1. Genuine repent of that HERESY and embrace the truth.
2. Give an account for that HERESY on the day of judgment.

I'd heartily recommend that you go with option number 1, but the choice is yours.

 

[Live4Him3]

Find the verse where Jesus says, "I am not the Father"

Better still, you find the verse where Jesus says "I am the Father".

If we weren't smack dab in the middle of the long-prophesied apostasy, then I wouldn't believe that I'm even having this present conversation with those who profess to be Christians.

Again, if you believe that a Father and his Son are the same person (for lack of a better term), then you're out of your mind.

Seriously, go and seek help because you desperately need it.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

 

[Live4Him3]

So, you believe that when Jesus prayed that we would be one EVEN AS he and the Father are one he was praying for you to become God.

Good to know.

Now, you've only got two options with that HERETICAL belief:

1. Genuine repent of that HERESY and embrace the truth.
2. Give an account for that HERESY on the day of judgment.

I'd heartily recommend that you go with option number 1, but the choice is yours.

Option number 1 should have read "GENUINELY repent".

Sorry for the typo.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Anyhow, Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand in heaven, and he is the only mediator between God the Father and men.

He is not the Father. He walks in perfect unison with the Father, so, again, he is the express image of his person, but he and the Father are not the same person (again, for lack of a better term).

He is the Son.

The Son of man is seated at the right hand of God. Not the Son of God. Son of God = the Father in the flesh. Son of man = Jesus' body.

John 10:38 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Luke 22:69
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Hebrews 10:12
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Live4Him3]

The Son of man is seated at the right hand of God. Not the Son of God. Son of God = the Father in the flesh. Son of man = Jesus' body.

John 10:38 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Luke 22:69
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Hebrews 10:12
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

So, now you're trying to separate Jesus' divinity from his humanity as if he's somehow split into two separate beings?

Seriously, hang your head in shame (primarily before God and then before the other members here), and then go and repent.

It's your only hope.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, you believe that when Jesus prayed that we would be one EVEN AS he and the Father are one he was praying for you to become God.

Good to know.

Now, you've only got two options with that HERETICAL belief:

1. Genuine repent of that HERESY and embrace the truth.
2. Give an account for that HERESY on the day of judgment.

I'd heartily recommend that you go with option number 1, but the choice is yours.

no that’s just silly and you trying to distort what people are saying.

God became flesh right ?

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s Jesus it’s simple right ? Was God manifest in the flesh of a man or not ? If you can answer that you’ll understand Jesus is God the father manifest in the flesh of man ( the son ) and was glorified in the spirit that now lives in you.

it’s not theee different people it is God who is a spirit

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who saw that all Mankind was lost without a perfect intercessor and so he became a man to intercede for us

“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:15-17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s no reason to not accept it brother in the Old Testament it’s before God was born in the flesh the gospel is recoding that time when God walked among us on earth teaching us to be his children in Christ , and then he returned to heaven glorofoed in the spirit as he was in the beginning when he was speaking from heaven about the day he would come and make himself known to all nations

your seeing what God did for us the creator here

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is Jesus he came in the flesh to save us

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3, 10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The same creator in the beginning came to dwell among us in the flesh d then after he returned to his eternal glory

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God the father , was manifest in the flesh of man , the son of God and now he is interceding forever for us Who had no intercessor God became the high priest we needed to be saved.

the gospel is the message and record of when he fulfilled the Old Testament promise that he was coming to save us

 

[wattie]

Remember.. 'the Father is greater than I' .. this isn't Jesus saying the Father is superior.

Jesus, after saying this.. ascends to be one with the Father.. equal.

The Father was greater in position. Not an ontologically superior being.

I can say the president is greater than me.. he is in a greater office.. but he isn't a superior being.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

Son of man speaking. What clearly doesn't make sense is one god being greater than another god.

 

[Live4Him3]

For any non-heretics here who may be following this conversation, please consider the following lest you be deceived as certain other members here are presently deceived:

John chapter 10

[30] I and my Father are one.

John chapter 14

[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jesus said that he and his Father are one, and he also said that he is in the Father, and the Father is in him.

Got it?

Good.

Now, look what he prayed for in relation to all believers:

John chapter 17

[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus prayed that we would be one EVEN AS he and the Father are one, and he qualified that by saying AS thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they ALSO may be one in us or I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.

In other words, he prayed for the same exact oneness or UNITY between us and him and his Father that he and his Father share.

According to the heretical beliefs of certain members here, Jesus prayed that you would be God the Father because they insist that Jesus is God the Father.

That's what they're saying, folks.

They're HERETICS.

Don't believe them.

 

[Live4Him3]

Son of man speaking. What clearly doesn't make sense is one god being greater than another god.

The Son of man and the Son of God are now, AND THROUGHOUT THE REST OF ETERNITY, the same person, so stop trying to ridiculously separate them somehow.

Philippians chapter 2

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Live4Him3]

Remember.. 'the Father is greater than I' .. this isn't Jesus saying the Father is superior.

Jesus, after saying this.. ascends to be one with the Father.. equal.

The Father was greater in position. Not an ontologically superior being.

I can say the president is greater than me.. he is in a greater office.. but he isn't a superior being.

Jesus will be subservient to the Father throughout all of eternity:

Philippians chapter 2

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Remember.. 'the Father is greater than I' .. this isn't Jesus saying the Father is superior.

Jesus, after saying this.. ascends to be one with the Father.. equal.

The Father was greater in position. Not an ontologically superior being.

I can say the president is greater than me.. he is in a greater office.. but he isn't a superior being.

It says whatever you want it to say.

 

[Live4Him3]

It says whatever you want it to say.

No, instead, it says what the bulk of scripture clarifies it to say.

Like it or not, Jesus will be subservient to the Father throughout all of eternity.

If you don't understand the "why" behind this truth, then I doubt that you even understand salvation.