How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Well @Laura798 (per your Post #1539), those verses certainly aren't among the ones I was GUESSING you had drawn from per your conclusions you had stated, by your saying:

The bible is clear. there will be the rising of both the living and the dead at the end of the age.

[I assumed you had meant "the dead / unsaved / lost / unbelievers"... NO?? Let me go back and read your words in the context of how you may have meant them... Perhaps I was jumping ahead...]




As you know, I do agree "the dead IN Christ" (who will "rise" first / be "resurrected" before the "caught up together" part) and the "we which are alive and remain unto" (who are ALSO "IN Christ") will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED] TOGETHER"

 

[DavidTree]

David, the bible is clear that no one is with Christ until after the Judgment at HIs Second Coming. Think of those who did not have their wedding clothes--we must be clothes with our celestial bodies to enter God's Kingdom. Again, the bible says "No one has ascended to the Father, except the Son."

This is another unholy dichotomy my sister in Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 , I believe I was thrown off by your reference to "the end of the age" (... that is, "the end [singular] of the age [singular]").




Which, by the way, was along the lines of a subject I had neglected to cover (tho had aimed to) in my response to one of DavidTree's posts, recently... I'll try to go find that and finish my covering of that subject. LOL)

 

[Laura798]

David, the bible is clear that no one is with Christ until after the Judgment at HIs Second Coming. Think of those who did not have their wedding clothes--we must be clothed with our celestial bodies to enter God's Kingdom. Again, the bible says "No one has ascended to the Father, except the Son." The idea that we immediately ascend to heaven is something the protestants got from the catholics and the catholics got from the pagans. Carefully research this and you will discover this truth for yourself.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy--the guests were invited to the wedding, but they weren't wearing the appropriate attire--that isn't the exact meaning of the parable, but I hope you get the idea. There is a process. You may have a winning Lotto ticket, but you must sign the back and you must turn it in--you know you've won, but you may have to wait several weeks before you can receive your pay out. So too, with being with the Lord. If you took your belief to it's logical conclusion then there would be nothing to keep you from being automatically in Christ's presence at your conversion. The process is: 1:Christ Returns 2. He Judges the earth--the book of life is opened (figuratively--it will be instantaneous) 3. The dead rise and those who are alive meet Christ in the AIR (NOT heaven)--then instantaneously there will be a New Heaven and a new earth. Perhaps we'll have Celestial Lawn Chairs or sit on fluffy clouds while we watch the fireworks of Destruction of the Old and Creation of the NEW.

 

[Laura798]

This is another unholy dichotomy my sister in Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

David:
I'm trying to think of a good analogy--the guests were invited to the wedding, but they weren't wearing the appropriate attire--that isn't the exact meaning of the parable, but I hope you get the idea. There is a process. You may have a winning Lotto ticket, but you must sign the back and you must turn it in--you know you've won, but you may have to wait several weeks before you can receive your pay out. So too, with being with the Lord. If you took your belief to it's logical conclusion then there would be nothing to keep you from being automatically in Christ's presence at your conversion. The process is: 1:Christ Returns 2. He Judges the earth--the book of life is opened (figuratively--it will be instantaneous) 3. The dead rise and those who are alive meet Christ in the AIR (NOT heaven)--then instantaneously there will be a New Heaven and a new earth. Perhaps we'll have Celestial Lawn Chairs or sit on fluffy clouds while we watch the fireworks of Destruction of the Old and Creation of the NEW.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree said:
ou never answered this question: How did the Apostle Paul say this:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Here it is... in my Post #1515... (I forgot to FINISH MY THOUGHT, LOL... see bottom of this present post)

If I've not answered it in THIS thread, I have addressed it in OTHER threads...

--"synezōopoiēsen [G4806]," and "synēgeiren [G4891]," and "synekathisen [G4776]"... (us/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)... that is, WHEN HE was;

--this pertains to LEGAL / POSITIONAL truths (He "made us alive together with" and "raised us up together with" and "seated us together with" Him WHEN HE DID... positionally / legally "IN HIM"... IN the HEAVENLY-PLACES... and in the future it will be "LITERALLY" / "PHYSICALLY" / "BODILY" (albeit with GLORIFIED / PERFECTED / TRANSLATED / 'CLOTHED-UPON' / CHANGED bodies.

...and then with the ALREADY-AT THAT [future] TIME-AWARDED-crowns/stephanous... but no crowns UNTIL "IN THAT DAY," see [Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY..." ])

"that IN THE AGES [PLURAL] to come"...


...note, there is MORE THAN ONE (even BESIDES "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which is ETERNITY / FOREVER]... so even BESIDES THAT! and PRIOR TO THAT!)
Jesus had spoken to His disciples of "the AGE [SINGULAR] TO COME" (which they CORRECTLY understood to be what WE call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" age, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth... And there is one Jesus spoke of that finishes out EVEN PRIOR TO THAT one... [namely, "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" which is the one THEY were STANDING in and speaking out from... Matt24:3 based on what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" when the angels will "REAP"... and pertaining to the "WHEAT" harvest... WE are not the "WHEAT" harvest])

 

[DavidTree]

David:
I'm trying to think of a good analogy--the guests were invited to the wedding, but they weren't wearing the appropriate attire--that isn't the exact meaning of the parable, but I hope you get the idea. There is a process. You may have a winning Lotto ticket, but you must sign the back and you must turn it in--you know you've won, but you may have to wait several weeks before you can receive your pay out. So too, with being with the Lord. If you took your belief to it's logical conclusion then there would be nothing to keep you from being automatically in Christ's presence at your conversion. The process is: 1:Christ Returns 2. He Judges the earth--the book of life is opened (figuratively--it will be instantaneous) 3. The dead rise and those who are alive meet Christ in the AIR (NOT heaven)--then instantaneously there will be a New Heaven and a new earth. Perhaps we'll have Celestial Lawn Chairs or sit on fluffy clouds while we watch the fireworks of Destruction of the Old and Creation of the NEW.

When we, who are Blood Cleansed Righteous Sons of God die, our spirits go directly to Heaven where we are now in HIM.

There is no jail for Blood Cleansed Holy Brethren of Christ = only Heaven, in His Presence.

When we get there we are given the White Robes because we are no longer naked and defiled by sin.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Rev 7

HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH

 

[Laura798]

This is another unholy dichotomy my sister in Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

David,

'Unholy' equates against God/blasphemous. I don't think that term is appropriate because what I say doesnt fit your doctrinal narrative.

Re-read the verse it says "We will be caught up together with HIM in the AiR." Air here means we won't be on the Earth--this could be literally the upper atmosphere or the invisible 'air' --which is not physical.

 

[DavidTree]

David,

'Unholy' equates against God/blasphemous. I don't think that term is appropriate because what I say doesnt fit your doctrinal narrative.

Re-read the verse it says "We will be caught up together with HIM in the AiR." Air here means we won't be on the Earth--this could be literally the upper atmosphere or the invisible 'air' --which is not physical.

I say this not against you - please know this and i do not accuse you of blasphemy.

However, you are correct - to speak against the Word of God is unholy.

This is why i always remind everyone this:

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22: 18-19

When our words directly go against Scripture they are unholy - meaning they do not agree with God.

That does not mean we are blaspheming, because we are speaking from our own understanding which is limited.

However, once Scripture confronts us and corrects our understanding we should Rejoice in IT and let go of our futile attempt to correct God by adding to or taking away from His words.

 

[DavidTree]

David,

'Unholy' equates against God/blasphemous. I don't think that term is appropriate because what I say doesnt fit your doctrinal narrative.

Re-read the verse it says "We will be caught up together with HIM in the AiR." Air here means we won't be on the Earth--this could be literally the upper atmosphere or the invisible 'air' --which is not physical.

These physical elements are permanently connected to and part of the Earth = Water, Earth(soil, rocks, etc) Air/Atmosphere.

Invisible air is physical other wise you would not be able to breathe and be alive - we can hear it and feel it when the wind blows on us and it moves the leaves and tree branches.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Laura798]

When we, who are Blood Cleansed Righteous Sons of God die, our spirits go directly to Heaven where we are now in HIM.

There is no jail for Blood Cleansed Holy Brethren of Christ = only Heaven, in His Presence.

When we get there we are given the White Robes because we are no longer naked and defiled by sin.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Rev 7

HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH

David, Jesus himself was in the ground 3 days--he said "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." The bible says likewise it will be with us.

This verse says David is still dead and buried--he did not ascend--no believer will until Christ's Second Coming. Again that idea came from the Pagans. "“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." --Acts 2:29

Sometimes our long held beliefs seem true. "If a person hears a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." Sincerely pray and ask God to reveal to you the Mystery of the Gospel. I did seven years ago and the scales fell off my eyes--and I saw what was in plain sight all the time.

 

[Laura798]

These physical elements are permanently connected to and part of the Earth = Water, Earth(soil, rocks, etc) Air/Atmosphere.

Invisible air is physical other wise you would not be able to breathe and be alive - we can hear it and feel it when the wind blows on us and it moves the leaves and tree branches.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I'm not sure why you're defining air. My point is that we are not caught up to heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When we get there we are given the White Robes because we are no longer naked and defiled by sin.

I'm not saying you were referencing what I had been referencing... but I'm just wanting to point out to the readers of this thread, that the word/s "naked" / "unclothed" as used in 2 Corinthians 5 (vv.3,4) are NOT used in reference to "sin" or being "defiled by sin," as some suggest this passage to be talking about. It doesn't.

In this context, those words are referring ONLY to the fact of when believers DIE they are apart from / "ABSENT FROM the body" ("unclothed / naked") for a time... UNTIL our Rapture event is due to take place (when they'll rec'v their GLORIFIED bodies which will be like Christ's body was after HIS resurrection--see Lk24:39), and then (all of us thus "changed") we're "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"

 

[Nehemiah6]

I see a very serious error in this thread of thinking believers go directly to heaven--then what would be the point of the judgment?

The one who has recently arrived on this forum with this remark is the one who is seriously in error.

BELIEVERS WHO DIE GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor 5:6-9)

a. What did Paul mean by "absent from the Lord?" He meant absent from the physical presence of Christ who is in Heaven.
b. What did Paul mean by "absent from the body?" He meant that the soul and spirit were separated from the body at death.
c. What did Paul mean by "present with the Lord?" He meant that the soul and spirit would be present in Heaven with the Lord (who is also in Heaven). Example: Stephen when he died went directly to Heaven.

ACTS 7 & 8: THE MATRYDOM OF STEPHEN
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep [died].
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

At the Resurrection/Rapture (one event) the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ will be united with their resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies. And those who are alive at that time will be transformed and also receive glorified bodies (1 Cor 15). And all these saints will return to Heaven with Christ for the Marriage of the Lamb.

The reason for the Judgment Seat of Christ is that the works of believers will be judged, and rewards will be given to those whose works are found to be worthy.

 

[DavidTree]

David, Jesus himself was in the ground 3 days--he said "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." The bible says likewise it will be with us.

This verse says David is still dead and buried--he did not ascend to heaven and he will not ascended to heaven--no believer will until Christ's Second Coming. Again that idea came from the Pagans. "“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." --Acts 2:29

Sometimes our long held beliefs seem true. "If a person hears a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." Sincerely pray and ask God to reveal to you the Mystery of the Gospel. I did seven years ago and the scales fell off my eyes--and I saw what was in plain sight all the time.

You are confusing to separate parts of our created being made in the Image and Likeness of God.

We have a Physical Body and a Soul and a Spirit.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely;
and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it

 

[Laura798]

I say this not against you - please know this and i do not accuse you of blasphemy.

However, you are correct - to speak against the Word of God is unholy.

This is why i always remind everyone this:

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22: 18-19

When our words directly go against Scripture they are unholy - meaning they do not agree with God.

That does not mean we are blaspheming, because we are speaking from our own understanding which is limited.

However, once Scripture confronts us and corrects our understanding we should Rejoice in IT and let go of our futile attempt to correct God by adding to or taking away from His words.

I'm sorry David, but this sounds rather arrogant of you--the first sin Satan tempted Adam and Eve with they would be like God, knowing good from evil. I don't say we shouldn't point out error--but you don't realize that you yourself might be in error.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm not saying you were referencing what I had been referencing... but I'm just wanting to point out to the readers of this thread, that the word/s "naked" / "unclothed" as used in 2 Corinthians 5 (vv.3,4) are NOT used in reference to "sin" or being "defiled by sin" as some suggest this passage to be talking about. It doesn't.

In this context, those words are referring ONLY to the fact of when believers DIE they are apart from / "ABSENT FROM the body" ("unclothed / naked") for a time... UNTIL our Rapture event is due to take place (when they'll rec'v their GLORIFIED bodies which will be like Christ's body was after HIS resurrection--see Lk24:39), and then we're "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"

Half right half wrong - get it all right when you believe all that is written and do not add or take away - amen

PEACE to you my Brother

 

[Laura798]

The one who has recently arrived on this forum with this remark is the one who is seriously in error.

BELIEVERS WHO DIE GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor 5:6-9)

a. What did Paul mean by "absent from the Lord?" He meant absent from the physical presence of Christ who is in Heaven.
b. What did Paul mean by "absent from the body?" He meant that the soul and spirit were separated from the body at death.
c. What did Paul mean by "present with the Lord?" He meant that the soul and spirit would be present in Heaven with the Lord (who is also in Heaven). Example: Stephen when he died went directly to Heaven.

ACTS 7 & 8: THE MATRYDOM OF STEPHEN
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep [died].
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

At the Resurrection/Rapture (one event) the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ will be united with their resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies. And those who are alive at that time will be transformed and also receive glorified bodies (1 Cor 15). And all these saints will return to Heaven with Christ for the Marriage of the Lamb.

The reason for the Judgment Seat of Christ is that the works of believers will be judged, and rewards will be given to those whose works are found to be worthy.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm sorry David, but this sounds rather arrogant of you--the first sin Satan tempted Adam and Eve with they would be like God, knowing good from evil. I don't say we shouldn't point out error--but you don't realize that you yourself might be in error.

i am strong my Sister - go for it - point out my error that i may be blessed with His Truth - amen

Rebuke a wise man and he will be wiser still

 

[Laura798]

Nehemiah6, you will find many who agree with you--Christians, Hindus, Catholics and Muslims. And you will also find many Christians ---but no Catholics, Muslims or Hindus--- who disagree with you.