They were born-again the moment they believed - just like anyone and everyone else who is born-again.
How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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Time and again you have accused me of adding to scripture, and now you add to scripture.
Case in point? You wrote, "The 'Falling Away' is Departure from the Truth"
That is adding to scripture. Apostasia is a departing. Nothing more or nothing less. This word does not include any information as to what is being departed from. Therefore to insist it is a departing from the faith is adding meaning not included in the scriptures.
Just so I will know, Paul sets the theme of this passage as the coming and the gathering. Where then in this passage do you see the coming and he gathering?
Question: How can a falling away POSSIBLY be the restraining force being "taken out of the way?" How could evil (a falling away) restrain evil?
On the other hand, it is very easy to see how the Holy Spirit, working through the church can restrain evil.
Another question: WHERE in this passage did Paul tell us WHO this restrainer is?
Indeed, "some" will depart from the faith. But Paul called this a dignificant departing with the use of THE apostasia. If a falling away was Paul's intent, how in the world would anyone know when "enough" fell away to say, "ah! This is what Paul was meaning.?" (It would be very subjective.)
On the other hand, when the church has departed in the rapture, it would be a very significant departing and without a doubt many would say, "this is what Paul was meaning."
What are you talking about? We agree on many things.
Correct - 'pre-trib' is not biblical - I agree.
You should know this: “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 1*:15-18
“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Cor 13:1
FOUR Faithful WITNESSES Testify of the "falling away/departure from the Truth" - Here they are one more time for you
The 'Falling Away' is Departure from the Truth
JESUS said it first - Matt 24:9-10
Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.
PAUL said it - 2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
The HOLY SPIRIT said it: 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
JOHN said it: 1 John 2:18-19
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
Anyone who says the falling away/departure is a 'pre-trib rapture of the church is in error, great sin and danger of judgment.
My friend, NO ONE is trying to deceive here! Why do you accuse?
I am not trying to deceive anyone. Our only difference is how each one reads the scriptures.
We are brothers in Christ as should be showing love one to another. Accusing someone of lying is certainly not showing love.
A good solution is to pick a scripture and see if we can come to an agreement on its meaning.
By the way, what is your #1 scripture to back your theory of a posttrib rapture?
You should know this: “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 1*:15-18
“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Cor 13:1
FOUR Faithful WITNESSES Testify of the "falling away/departure from the Truth" - Here they are one more time for you.
JESUS said it first - Matt 24:9-10
Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.
PAUL said it - 2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
The HOLY SPIRIT said it: 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
JOHN said it: 1 John 2:18-19
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
Anyone who says the falling away/departure is a 'pre-trib rapture of the church is in error, great sin and danger of judgment.
The 'Day of the Lord' is two things:
1) a 1000-year span of time
2) the first [24-hour] day of that 1000 years
#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ
#2 is the day Christ appears at His Second Coming
That is your opinion. My opinion is just the opposite. I think you are believing in error. But I certainly don't and won't accuse you of lying.
Next, I have not sinned against anyone by quoting scripture and adding what I think it means. Are you that easily offended?
That scripture above does not fit our scenario. I have not "wronged" you or sinned against you. Again, our only difference is how each one reads scripture. You imagine the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. I think it is a different gathering.
Perhaps you can add some other scripture to help you prove it is Paul's rapture.
No, you are mistaken. If so, Jesus would not have had to die and then rise from the dead. The sin problem HAD to be dealt with. The truth is, NO ONE could be born again until the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is why He did not breath on them and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit until after He had risen from the dead.
Gary, I will have to disagree again - but you are close.
The 6th seal's main purpose was to seal the book and prevent it from being opened until the One who sealed it was present.
It's secondary purpose is to begin the Day of the Lord at the proper time. I don't think the Day of the Lord ends at the 7th vial. I think it continues on to include the entire millennial reign.
Ha ha! Just had a thought: the earthquake does not last that long!
i am showing my love to you. If i did not care about you(and others) i would not be here.
Our Lords words, the words of God and His Holy Spirit should be held in the absolute highest regard in our hearts.
THINK my Brother, THINK DEEP, satan twisted, ever so slightly God's words to Eve and in doing so brought the whole world under his power and death. We became slaves to satan's sin and rebellion against the Goodness of God by a few words.
There is a Eternal Commandment that we all must adhere to if we are to believe in God - His Word.
Deut 4:1-2
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
The Scripture is not a chess board where we sit across from one another to see who can outsmart the other - this is pride.
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Mark 10:15
Behold the discombobulated DaveTree Special. I love you, Dave. I really do.
Behold the discombobulated DaveTree Special. I love you, Dave. I really do.
He has the order correct.
That's false. You are making up your own personal definition and ignoring the actual definition:
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
When you add and or subtract from God's words to reverse or undermine what HE said - it is Sin and a Terrible Sin to commit.
You were shown FOUR WITNESSES who Testify to the very SAME Truth and you claim "i don't see it that way".
You need to humble your self before the LORD and ask for His Grace to see and accept His words.
i told you before, stern but in love - pre-trib is a lie from satan and that lie cascades into many more lies.
Once you are snake bitten by it you begin to see differently then "It is written".
pre-trib never came out of the Mouth of God. Place yourself at Jesus Feet = Matthew ch24
Behold the discombobulated DaveTree Special. I love you, Dave. I really do.
YES, Dear Brother, i receive your love and share it back as you well know - i also pray the same for us both and look forwrd to the day we meet in New Glorified Bodies - make sure we meet - Amen
Here is 1 Thessalonians in Order as "It is written"
CH1.) Salvation/Hope - We always thank God for all of you, remembering you in our prayers and continually recalling before our God and Father your work of faith, your labor of love, and your enduring hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:1-3
CH2.) You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well.
CH3.) Tribulation/Persecution - when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left on our own in Athens. We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, so that none of you would be shaken by these trials. For you know that we are destined for this.
Indeed, when we were with you, we kept warning you that we would suffer persecution; and as you know, it has come to pass.
CH4.) His Coming - Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that
God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
Dead Rise First - By the word of the Lord, we declare to you;
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
AFTER the Resurrection - the rapture -Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
You said: "To be a true Christian one must be "born again" and that experience was not available or possible before Christ rose from the dead."
The New Birth was always made available to God's People - Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
PAY ATTENTION to this dialogue: Gospel of John ch3
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things?