How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?

[Jocund]

Does it further follow that each individual member of that body receives exactly what every other member of that body receives? Not necessarily.

I agree. And we see these analogies with comparisons of different parts of the body having different offices of duty/domain. An eye to an ear, etc.

The context of the Galatians passage was "righteousness/Justification", not an all-encompassing statement also including property or land ownership.

Individuals certainly retain individuality, and the ability to honour their respective fathers and mothers. And from that there can be culture that is rolled from one generation to the next (there's a caveat with this).

It might be the case that one person in Christ is born in Africa and inhabits that part of the world, and another person in Christ is born in Japan and inhabits that other part of the world. Each can belong to a different 'member' (tongue, eye, etc.) in the Body of Christ, and therefore have different missions, purposes, and focuses in life, but nothing is stopping someone from being reassigned a membership. The division between these memberships is not based on genetics. These kinds of divisions were an issue that Paul addresses when he rebukes Peter. The caveat with being able to carry-forward one's historical culture is that it cannot interfere with the unity of the Body of Christ.

There are also different responsibilities given to different members of the body whether Jew or Gentile...

This is a point I disagree with. It might be the case that a person with apparent Jewish ancestry and a person without apparent Jewish ancestry have different missions in life. The differences in mission aren't themselves based on genetic ancestry as a hard dividing line.

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

It's not as though "the yoke" was something obligated by Christian of Jewish heritage nor by Christians without Jewish heritage. The truth is that neither group was obligated to follow these ordinances by some letter of law. One should follow what their faith leads them to believe is right for them, regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile. This passage isn't a dividing line between Jew and Gentile, it's a caution not to impose something on others even though it might be right for you (based on what your faith calls you to do) but not in fact may not be right for someone else (based on what their faith calls them to do). It can result in individuals rejecting the assembly because they are being asked to do something that is against their faith. A broader conversation about an aspect of this exists in Romans 14. And especially if we approach Romans 14's reference to food as a metaphor for cultural teachings and practices, the message becomes clear.

Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

These ordinances may in fact be specific to the target Gentile group being written to in this case.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The law in Christ. And this has to do with how the priesthoods work and the fact that the ordinances of the law change, but the spirit of the law (righteousness) remains the same. The spirit of the law was never removed, only the old covenant ordinances under the old priesthood (now taken over by Christ as the eternal head priest).

All MUST have faith first, but it's the Jew BY faith (as they abide in the law entrusted to them; not to be confused with "works of the law" i.e. animal sacrifices), and the Gentile THROUGH faith (who weren't originally given the law).

The quoted interpretation does not hold water when we consider it was a nonissue for Paul and other Jewish converts not to follow the old covenant ordinances of the law.

"To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law." - 1 Cor 9:21 KJV

Within Christianity, those of Jewish heritage were only required to adhere to provisions if their sense of faith led them to it. And even then, we come back to Paul's rebuke of Peter. There are limitations for what is permissible. Internal checks and balances in the Body of Christ.

Jew BY faith [...] Gentile THROUGH faith (who weren't originally given the law).

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" - Romans 2:14 KJV

Gentiles always had law.

I feel that I don't quite understand this "BY" vs. "THROUGH" nuance you are trying to illustrate. If it is premised on the idea that Gentiles were without a law, I would disagree (but certainly they would have been without the OT law ordinances). It may not have been the same law as OT Hebrews and Jews, but it was a law nonetheless. And now under Christ, both groups are under the same law (the law of Christ).

So hopefully I've established a solid foundation that we can agree upon before we dive into an OT promise specifically for Israel.

I think we agree that differences exist between Christians in terms of their missions in life, but I think we disagree on the nature of that divisions. In a post-crucifixion world, I don't agree with the premise that ethnicity would be a dividing factor that would determine categories of missions. I believe that God can lead you to whatever mission in life irrespective of genetics. And if the seed promises are all to Christ and the Body of Christ, it wouldn't matter which genetics you come from. It's not as though "only Christians of Jewish ancestry" perform some range of functions and "only Christians of nonJewish ancestry" perform a separate range of functions. I see no Biblical evidence for that even if it were possible to somehow determine perfect genealogies for every Christian alive today.

 

[pottersclay]

King James Bible
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is the reason for the temple.

 

[pottersclay]

“Israel is not Israel without a temple.”

Israel isn’t israel without accepting Jesus actually , who is the temple of God and the only way to worship him. It doesn’t require anyone to build a building and make a temple so they can speak with and have a relationship with God

you don’t have to go to Jerusalem to meet with God or belong to him or you don’t have to be born of Israeli flesh d blood to belong to God and be his chosen you have to accept the gospel whether you are isreali blood or gentile blood


You make a great point Without a temple Jerusalem is left desolate without the means of worshipping who reject thier messiah the temple was thier connection to God in the old testsment the place where he met them was in the center of the temple upon the mercy seat it was where the performed every priestly function and was necassary for them to have a relationship with God we don’t need any of that whether we have Israeli blood or gentile blood either way there is no temple service in the New Testament only if you look at this will you see the temple of God now where we worship him

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the temple was a temporary earthly pattern so God could have a relationship until Christ came and gave us his spirit to dwell in us this fulfills the purpose of the temple Godnis we to come meet the mediator there now he meets us here

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭

you won’t find that doctrine given in the ot , nor will you find any temple services given in the new terrement to be performed in a man made temple we serve God now because he lives in us and is always ever present with us no matter what building we stand in or what city we live in we don’t need a temple we have become in Christ the temple of the living God that’s what the church is brother

we can’t keep looking at the old things to y we’re only a pattern in Christ is where we find all the reality and eternal things of God


this is israel the elect of God and the hiers of Abraham’s promises

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the Old Testament was a pattern of the true eternal gospel Jesus fulfilled all those needs now we just have to start with Jesus and e gospel we don’t find any building of any temple for God except this building of his true temple

“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you just notice how the Old Testament requires a temple and all those priestly services like animal blood sacrofoced on an altar you can just think ok it must have been a pattern of Jesus shedding his blood upon the altar in heaven before Gods throne

this is the same for the whole Old Testament it’s a pattern even the land of Israel is a pattern of the true promised land

Most would say Israel's land is on this earth Abraham’s inheritance faith tells a different story

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That city is here it’s not yet in earth

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The earthly isn’t permanent the heavenly is

You said that you dont have to go to Jerusalem to meet or be with GOD?

King James Bible
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And if they do not go no rain shall fall upon that nation. .....seems pretty earthy to me.
Also there will be a plague up on that nation......seems pretty earthy to me.

 

[pottersclay]

Now Jesus and his chosen to rule the nations rule with a rod of iron.
So lets not paint the picture of the 1000 yr reign with unicorns and rainbows.
The term used a rod of iron is with strong authority. There is much work left to do.
We then see satan released from his bonds to see whom he can deceive and yet there still are some.

The promise from GOD to restore the earth and Israel to the former indeed presents a exsisting temple.

 

[Jocund]

Why assume that the feast of tabernacles requires a temple when even by OT standards in Deut 16:16, the event can take place anywhere?

 

[TMS]

My Lord is high priest of the temple now.

Jesus is in Heaven so the Temple is in heaven.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[TMS]

Heb 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

If Jesus is high preist in heaven why do we need a temple on Earth?

 

[TMS]

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

When the Jews were told to set up the sanctuary and the services, they were given by God a pattern to follow. The heavenly pattern.

So the earthly temples were just shadows of the heavenly temple.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[Inquisitor]

The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom back to them at that time and He said the Father will do it in His own time but be concerned with preaching the Gospel.

God said He is going to bring the whole house of Jacob back to their land and leave none of them in the nations anymore and they will know the LORD their God from that time forward and He will never hide His face from them again which means Israel as a nation will be in the truth and never stray again.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in which means when salvation is not available to them anymore and so all Israel shall be saved.

There will be a 3rd temple built and the Jews will go back to animal sacrifices.

The antichrist will establish peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Hebrews to go back to Israel for the Gentile nations will see to it and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land but God means it for good towards the Jews.

Israel will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians and the Jews will have their 3rd temple and go back to animal sacrifices.

The New Age Christ will work in the world for three and one half years and will push the agenda of the new age movement and then step in to the Jews temple and claim to be God by evolving through nature to be spiritual and godlike and will try to deceive the Jews that He is their God.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to them and God will send Israel 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Why would modern Jews go back to animal sacrifices?

Modern Israel is not even under the law of Moses.

The concept of a third temple in Jerusalem is ridiculous.

 

[soberxp]

Why would modern Jews go back to animal sacrifices?

Modern Israel is not even under the law of Moses.

The concept of a third temple in Jerusalem is ridiculous.

There has a thing called obsession, even if pay more mistakes, in order to this obsession, human really can do a lot of things. Perhaps Jews only want to regain God's approval, but not all Jews are ignorant and choose a different path.

We don't have to laugh at the Jews, because I know I probably wouldn't do any better than the Jews.

 

[VCO]

People seem to have a big problem with an earthly Temple. Not so with Jesus.....


Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Mat 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Doesn't your Bible Software have a switch or button to print the Translation you are using? But I still use WORDsearch 10. They keep trying to force me to JOIN LOGOS, be systematically removing features. The WORDsearch 10 bunch sold it to LOGOS. In my opinion LOGOS is the most GREEDY Christian Software there is. JESUS drove them out with a whip, and the CREPT BACK IN. So I still use WORDsearch 10, until it no longer works, in the mean while I will put up with less, and less features. I used to have LOGOS, and then one day they doubled MacArthur's books on me, and quit them for good. I use occasionally e-Sword, but they have a week search program, compared to WORDsearch 10..

Jer 26:18 (NET) “Micah from Moresheth prophesied during the time Hezekiah was king of Judah. He told all the people of Judah, ‘The LORD of Heaven’s Armies says, “Zion will become a plowed field. Jerusalem will become a pile of rubble. The temple mount will become a mere wooded ridge.”’

Now is not this that "mere WOODED RIDGE", and that "plowed field" where they raised potatoes, and obviously Ancient Jerusalem had become "a pile of RUBBLE", after 70 AD.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Evidently, Jocund, DavidTree, locoponydirtman and others presume that NONE of these future events have any possibility of happening.

Sounds like a "get behind me Satan" situation if you ask me.....

I noticed ya didnt tag us in this post but rather chose to talk about us. Good job.
However...
No, we believe many have ready happened and that some are happening now.
Do you really think that God will remove the temple from Jesus and the church of Jesus and nullify the death and resurrection of Jesus inorder to reinstate animal sacrifices? (That is "get behind me satan" teaching).

Further more.

The jews during Jesus' visitation thought that the messianic prophecies would manifest a material kingdom. That the Messiah would over throw rome and conquor the world. And they failed to see the prophecies come true in Jesus. Why should we make the same mistake?

How do you miss that the prophesy of Daniel in chapter 6 is fulfilled in Christ and then the subsequent destruction of the temple in 70 ad?
You have to add a thousands of years gap to make it about the future, on top of straight missing Christ.

How do you read the exodus story, then read what the feast of boothes is, understanding that their experience then was a reflection of our life in Christ, and not see Zechariah's prophecy in chapter 14, as on going right now?
That as Isreal crossed the red sea were baptized into Moses we are baptized into Christ.
That as they sojourned in a foriegn land we also walk as foriegners in a land that isnt ours. The feast of booths was and is a reflection of this very thing. And that it is what we are doing. This is om going for the Christian right now. Those who dont enter into this right now with us do not have the provision or peace or contentment or joy of the Lord. All that they have is suffering and sorrow and misery. They have no rain.

How do you miss that the temple in Zechariah is Christ? No man could build such a building, or cause such things like the water that pours out from the alter that becomes a river and desalinates portions of the sea and grow trees of life. This is clearly Jesus.

So i do believe in a literal fulfillment of prophecy. It is you who do not.

 

[Lanolin]

I appreciate the push back, thank you for taking the time.



I agree with you, and all I meant by contemporary bloodlines was that the bloodline claims in the modern world aren't relevant in the sense that Talmudic religions claim it to be. I completely agree that the bloodline leading up to Christ was important.



I think this is the crux of the conversation, the interpretation of OT prophecies. I think it is compellingly the case that many of these promises (especially the seed promises) can logically be fulfilled in Christ.

I think there is room for fruitful conversation about OT prophecies including land claims, etc. But I still see the likely result to be that Christ or those in Christ modernly would fulfil those prophecies, being members of the faith in good standing.

I think the best approach to this topic would be to 1) identify the passages containing the prophecies and their requirements, 2) evaluate all possible/valid interpretations that could be applied to fulfil those requirements, and 3) to make determinations from all of the possibilities as to what appears to be the most compelling interpretation.

I agree that I spoke in haste. I should have stated that I personally find it most compellingly the case that modern/contemporary bloodlines would be irrelevant (I see the distinction of bloodlines within Christ to be contrary to "there is neither Jew nor Gentile"). But so long as we stay consistent with scripture, I welcome counterpoints to that perspective.

I think the main driving point that Dispensationalists will disagree with but is scriptural fact is that Christ is a recipient of all of the promises. If Christ is the recipient of the promises, how could it be the case that the body of Christ is not?

last sentence... I will try to explain it to you

Because God made a covenant with his chosen people EVEN though Jesus renewed it and spiritually fufilled it He never forgot his people that could be grafted back in at any time. They are the branches broken off the original tree.

Recall the Gentiles are those grafted in as the Isrealites esp the Jews didnt bear any fruit. That tree was axed at the root. So wild olive was grafted in (gentile believers) but God did say that the orignal branches could also be grafted in later. He was not ruling them out.

Why? Because He is willing to love and forgive them, just the same as He sent his son to be a light to the gentiles. Gentiles were to provoke the jews to jealousy. They were all meant to be part of ONE tree. He said that it wouldnt end until the fullness of the gentiles had come in. Land of Israel is still there, New Jerusalem must come down at some point!

Thats how I understand it. Im reading KJV bible. Which translation or version do you read?

 

[cv5]

The belief that all prophesy will be fullfilled literally is what we differ on.
You will interpret all scripture so that this belief is true. I don't..

Show me the evidence that all are literal and unconditional.

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Disagree. Jonah was a prophet with a message of warning (this is NOT a prophecy per se). He was preaching repentance in effect. The Ninevites responded positively (for the time being) and so did God.

Jon 3:1
And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

Jon 3:2
Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

On the other hand, codified "enscripturated" future-telling that is recorded purposefully in black and white looking to the future ALWAYS, without exception comes to pass. Completely, literally and precisely on time.

And there are hundreds of such codified unambiguous pertaining to the future of Israel. Entire chapters and entire books in fact.

Big big difference.

 

[Yahshua]

I think the first point you agreed with is probably a sufficient foundation to share an OT passage regarding a promise made specifically to Israel, so I'll come back to it, but if I may...

...Different Responsibilities...whether Jew or Gentile

This is a point I disagree with. It might be the case that a person with apparent Jewish ancestry and a person without apparent Jewish ancestry have different missions in life. The differences in mission aren't themselves based on genetic ancestry as a hard dividing line.

Isn't it consistent that if members of the body have "...different offices of duty/domain. An eye to an ear, etc. " as you agree, then they have different responsibilities? Does an eye have the same responsibility as an ear? Aren't duty (your word) and responsibility (my word) synonyms?

It's not as though "the yoke" was something obligated by Christian of Jewish heritage nor by Christians without Jewish heritage. The truth is that neither group was obligated to follow these ordinances by some letter of law. One should follow what their faith leads them to believe is right for them, regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile. This passage isn't a dividing line between Jew and Gentile, it's a caution not to impose something on others even though it might be right for you (based on what your faith calls you to do) but not in fact may not be right for someone else (based on what their faith calls them to do). It can result in individuals rejecting the assembly because they are being asked to do something that is against their faith. A broader conversation about an aspect of this exists in Romans 14. And especially if we approach Romans 14's reference to food as a metaphor for cultural teachings and practices, the message becomes clear.

If we use weightlifting at the gym as an analogy, in Romans 14 Paul is saying "don't give someone who just joined 100 pounds to lift. It's too much, they will fail and leave discouraged". Paul isn't saying "don't go to the gym if you don't want to because there's no need to lift any weight anymore."

This interpretation is consistent with what the council arrived at in Acts 15; to not overburden the new gentile converts "because Moses [i.e. the law] is preached [to them] every Sabbath day". In other words, they will grow stronger in it the more they hear the law of God.

Consider this: if neither group was/is obligated to follow anything then what logical sense was there to give the new coverts anything to do? That was James' opportunity to make it clear - especially to new converts - that they weren't necessary to do anymore, wasn't it? They could've started fresh. Why burden them with any of it at all? Occam's razor.

The quoted interpretation does not hold water when we consider it was a nonissue for Paul and other Jewish converts not to follow the old covenant ordinances of the law.

We often conflate two elements of the law to our detriment when reading Paul. There's:

A) Things to do to keep one from sin
B) Things to do to cleanse one after sin (when "A" is broken)


...to use biblical terminology...

A = Laws, Statutes, Commandments
B = "Works of The Law" including cleansing rights, etc. (when "A" is broken)

...a summary...

- "A" was given to Israel as terms of their covenant
- "B" was introduced when Israel broke "A"
- All have broken "A" and fallen short of the glory of the Living God
- "B" has always been a placeholder, prophesying that The Messiah would perform the true work.
- "B" could never take away sin
- "B" is the schoolmaster pointing to Messiah and His work
- "B" has no power to cleanse
- "B" was nailed to the cross

Paul and other Jewish believers who understood Messiah's work didn't follow "B" anymore and fiercely preach against anyone who continued to follow "B"...but they still continued to follow "A", because to not follow "A" is to sin. Paul emphasized this in Acts. if someone does break "A" they have an eternal advocate now in heaven to perform "B" for them.


Acts 21:20-25 [Bracket mine]
When [Elder James and Elders] heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

21 But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs.

22 What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow.

24 Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.

25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.


Acts 22:3, 12-13
“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but raised in this city. I was educated at the feet of Gamaliel in strict conformity to the law of our fathers. I am just as zealous for God as any of you here today.

12 There a man named Ananias, a devout observer of the law who was highly regarded by all the Jews living there,

13came and stood beside me. ‘Brother Saul,’ he said, ‘receive your sight.’ And at that moment I could see him.


Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


Acts 25:8
Then Paul made his defense: “I have committed no offense against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar.”


Acts 26:4-5
Surely all the Jews know how I have lived from the earliest days of my youth, among my own people and in Jerusalem.

5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that I lived as a Pharisee, adhering to the strictest sect of our religion.

Jew by faith (because they were given the law)...Gentile through faith (who weren't given the law)

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" - Romans 2:14 KJV

Gentiles always had law.

I feel that I don't quite understand this "BY" vs. "THROUGH" nuance you are trying to illustrate. If it is premised on the idea that Gentiles were without a law, I would disagree (but certainly they would have been without the OT law ordinances). It may not have been the same law as OT Hebrews and Jews, but it was a law nonetheless. And now under Christ, both groups are under the same law (the law of Christ).

Paul is talking about The Law of God.

When a gentile, who was not given the Law of God, naturally does something that is found in the Law of God...even though they weren't given the law of God, that thing becomes an article of the law that they will be measured by at the end of days. Because ALL will be measured by the law of God at the end of days whether outside of it or within it: Those outside it will die, and those inside it will be judged by it (Romans 2:12).

So if a gentile naturally believes stealing is wrong, having never heard the law of God preached to them, that commandment is what that person will be measured by in the end.

Israel, who was entrusted with the very law of God, must have faith in the law they're obeying (i.e. "walk it out by faith"). That's what was always missing; faith in Messiah to complete it all. Gentile believers were never entrusted with the law so it's only through faith in Messiah that they are grafted into Israel and partakers of the promises. The tree is Israel.

In a post-crucifixion world, I don't agree with the premise that ethnicity would be a dividing factor that would determine categories of missions...[...]...I see no Biblical evidence for that even if it were possible to somehow determine perfect genealogies for every Christian alive today.

Well, the Living God knows who's who. Romans 11 distinguishes between "natural branches" vs "wild". "Natural" represents the ethnic descendants. There are promises specifically made to them and not to Gentile believers. One is Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

So the children of Israel will:

- Be gathered from the nations of the world; "from the four winds" (Matthew 24:31)
- Reclaim specific possession of the land that belonged to their ancestors
- Have their fortunes restored
- Grow more numerous


There has never been a time in history when the people were scattered to every nation under heaven until after the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem, so we can't presume the promise of regathering & restoration was ever fulfilled anytime prior to 70AD.

 

[TMS]

Sometimes people refuse to see.
Like many people when Jesus was witnessing.

Some prophesies have been fulfilled. Some are yet to happen.

Some prophesies were conditional, and some were unconditional.

Some prophesies were literal, some were symbolic, some had multiple fulfillments, and some are yet to be understood.

This means that i can't apply a single rule to all prophesy, i need to research and study the subject in contect and pray that God reveals the meaning.

If you only have human, worldly expectation, you will not see the full truth.

 

[Jocund]

Because God made a covenant with his chosen people EVEN though Jesus renewed it and spiritually fufilled it He never forgot his people that could be grafted back in at any time.

All Christians are His people.

Not all people of Israel were chosen people. The question comes back to "Who are Israel?" Christ Jesus is, Paul is. But not all that claim to be Israel are Israel.

I can tell you who Talmudic Judaism claims are Israel, but what does Christian scripture tell us?

If someone came up to you today and stated that they were Jesus Christ returned in the flesh, you may pretty quickly connect the dots and note that the person's claim is consistent with the false Christs prophesied to come. Why would we then not apply this same scrutiny to those that claim to be Israel?

Who are Israel?

We can analyze the question by providing a min/max possible range. What are the minimum number of mortal people that would necessarily and modernly be Spiritual Israel?

MIN
It could be zero depending on how the "fulness" and "in part" is being intepreted (e.g. only for Paul's generation?). Otherwise the minimum is at least one.

MAX
It could be up to the maximum of the most generous context of a 'remnant'. At the extreme we could call a remnant 49%.

How can we tell the difference between the majority of the children of Israel that are doomed to be unsaved vs. the remnant of the children of Israel that are destined to be accepted as saved Spiritual Israel? Where are the unsaved majority? Who are the unsaved majority?

We know there are saved and unsaved children of Israel. Who do the promises apply to? Any child of Israel? Of course not. The children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Are the unsaved blood descendants of Israel counted as Gentiles? If Gentile means nonJew, it would seem to compellingly be the case. How then can we be so sure that people claiming to be Israel aren't actually just Gentiles?

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." - Rom 11:23 KJV

The Door is open to grafting children of Israel in if they do not continue in disbelief.

Many of these blind, unpricked, unbeliefing people of spiritual Israel turn to Christ and became members of the Church on a daily basis.

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." - Acts 2:47 KJV (about Jews, cf. Acts 2:5)

Land of Israel is still there, New Jerusalem must come down at some point!

After the land of Israel fades away when the first earth fades away, then New Jerusalem comes down. Rev 21. New Jerusalem is for Christians (inclusive of Christians with Israelite ancestry).

We also have to look at the fact that Israelites have been provided something greater than simple land.

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." - Heb 11:39-40 KJV

The phrasing of Heb 11:39-40 seems to suggest that the payments of promise can be fulfilled by substitution. What's your take on this passage?

Im reading KJV bible. Which translation or version do you read?

KJV, with the biblehub Greek or Hebrew breakdown as a reading aid.

 

[pottersclay]

All Christians are His people.

Not all people of Israel were chosen people. The question comes back to "Who are Israel?" Christ Jesus is, Paul is. But not all that claim to be Israel are Israel.

I can tell you who Talmudic Judaism claims are Israel, but what does Christian scripture tell us?

If someone came up to you today and stated that they were Jesus Christ returned in the flesh, you may pretty quickly connect the dots and note that the person's claim is consistent with the false Christs prophesied to come. Why would we then not apply this same scrutiny to those that claim to be Israel?

Who are Israel?

We can analyze the question by providing a min/max possible range. What are the minimum number of mortal people that would necessarily and modernly be Spiritual Israel?

MIN
It could be zero depending on how the "fulness" and "in part" is being intepreted (e.g. only for Paul's generation?). Otherwise the minimum is at least one.

MAX
It could be up to the maximum of the most generous context of a 'remnant'. At the extreme we could call a remnant 49%.

How can we tell the difference between the majority of the children of Israel that are doomed to be unsaved vs. the remnant of the children of Israel that are destined to be accepted as saved Spiritual Israel? Where are the unsaved majority? Who are the unsaved majority?

We know there are saved and unsaved children of Israel. Who do the promises apply to? Any child of Israel? Of course not. The children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Are the unsaved blood descendants of Israel counted as Gentiles? If Gentile means nonJew, it would seem to compellingly be the case. How then can we be so sure that people claiming to be Israel aren't actually just Gentiles?

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." - Rom 11:23 KJV

The Door is open to grafting children of Israel in if they do not continue in disbelief.

Many of these blind, unpricked, unbeliefing people of spiritual Israel turn to Christ and became members of the Church on a daily basis.

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." - Acts 2:47 KJV (about Jews, cf. Acts 2:5)



After the land of Israel fades away when the first earth fades away, then New Jerusalem comes down. Rev 21. New Jerusalem is for Christians (inclusive of Christians with Israelite ancestry).

We also have to look at the fact that Israelites have been provided something greater than simple land.

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." - Heb 11:39-40 KJV

The phrasing of Heb 11:39-40 seems to suggest that the payments of promise can be fulfilled by substitution. What's your take on this passage?



KJV, with the biblehub Greek or Hebrew breakdown as a reading aid.

There is no spiritual Israel...that is never found in the word. I can tune into the news or my Jerusalem channels and wow there they are. In israel right before my eyes...

 

[markss]

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." - Eph 2:19-22 KJV

This Ephesians passage could satisfy the 2 Thes 2:4 prophesy.

Is there something you can see that would disallow this?

How would you have the man of sin sitting in a spiritual temple showing himself to be God? What would that mean? The church being possessed by Satan?

Much love!

 

[TMS]

All Christians are His people.

Not all people of Israel were chosen people. The question comes back to "Who are Israel?" Christ Jesus is, Paul is. But not all that claim to be Israel are Israel.

I can tell you who Talmudic Judaism claims are Israel, but what does Christian scripture tell us?

If someone came up to you today and stated that they were Jesus Christ returned in the flesh, you may pretty quickly connect the dots and note that the person's claim is consistent with the false Christs prophesied to come. Why would we then not apply this same scrutiny to those that claim to be Israel?

Who are Israel?

We can analyze the question by providing a min/max possible range. What are the minimum number of mortal people that would necessarily and modernly be Spiritual Israel?

MIN
It could be zero depending on how the "fulness" and "in part" is being intepreted (e.g. only for Paul's generation?). Otherwise the minimum is at least one.

MAX
It could be up to the maximum of the most generous context of a 'remnant'. At the extreme we could call a remnant 49%.

How can we tell the difference between the majority of the children of Israel that are doomed to be unsaved vs. the remnant of the children of Israel that are destined to be accepted as saved Spiritual Israel? Where are the unsaved majority? Who are the unsaved majority?

We know there are saved and unsaved children of Israel. Who do the promises apply to? Any child of Israel? Of course not. The children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Are the unsaved blood descendants of Israel counted as Gentiles? If Gentile means nonJew, it would seem to compellingly be the case. How then can we be so sure that people claiming to be Israel aren't actually just Gentiles?

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." - Rom 11:23 KJV

The Door is open to grafting children of Israel in if they do not continue in disbelief.

Many of these blind, unpricked, unbeliefing people of spiritual Israel turn to Christ and became members of the Church on a daily basis.

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." - Acts 2:47 KJV (about Jews, cf. Acts 2:5)



After the land of Israel fades away when the first earth fades away, then New Jerusalem comes down. Rev 21. New Jerusalem is for Christians (inclusive of Christians with Israelite ancestry).

We also have to look at the fact that Israelites have been provided something greater than simple land.

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." - Heb 11:39-40 KJV

The phrasing of Heb 11:39-40 seems to suggest that the payments of promise can be fulfilled by substitution. What's your take on this passage?



KJV, with the biblehub Greek or Hebrew breakdown as a reading aid.

Heb 8, 9, 10, 11 and Rom 11 are good reading for this subject.
It is clear that we, like Abraham all in times past, look by faith to a greater city, a greater land, a greater kingdom, which the Lord builds not man.

This world is going to pass away so no use building a kingdom here.

Gods kingdom will not pass away. This world will.

Vs 13 is about the second coming of Jesus....
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.