My quote of 1 Cor. 1:18 was quoted exactly as my NKJV printed it. So, I looked at one of my other Bibles which does say "saved" in the past tense as you stated. I will never try to twist God's word to fit my personal way of thinking. We both know that there are many different versions of the Bible. My preferences are the NKJV and KJV. Either version makes the same point I was trying to make, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish is foolishness; but to unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." If you don't believe in God's word and the testimony that God has given of His Son, that ALL who believe in Him hath everlasting life, then you are calling God a liar. Obviously, this sounds like foolishness to you so I rest my case.
How does one believe?
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My quote of 1 Cor. 1:18 was quoted exactly as my NKJV printed it. So, I looked at one of my other Bibles which does say "saved" in the past tense as you stated. I will never try to twist God's word to fit my personal way of thinking. We both know that there are many different versions of the Bible. My preferences are the NKJV and KJV. Either version makes the same point I was trying to make, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish is foolishness; but to unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." If you don't believe in God's word and the testimony that God has given of His Son, that ALL who believe in Him hath everlasting life, then you are calling God a liar. Obviously, this sounds like foolishness to you so I rest my case.
To say we become his sheep when we believe makes his statement make no sense. Only his sheep hear his voice. How can one believe when he has not heard? (As Paul said)
Cook is right. You keep turning the scriptures upside down. We believe because we are his sheep and hear his voice. The Father gave us to him. The scriptures are clear on this.
May God be the Judge
If we're already His sheep, why do we need to "hear" anything to be saved??? Your belief is totally upside down. Why would God's disciples need to preach God's word until the end of their lives, with all but one being martyred for preaching the gospel of Christ? Millions have been persecuted and killed for their Christian belief and for spreading the gospel message. I've asked several Calvinists on this site how do they KNOW that they were pre-chosen by God to have eternal life? Not one has answered me. Calvinist John MacArthur has even admitted that he had no way of knowing for certain that he had been chosen. That is a pretty mixed up, upside down, and downright cruel kind of salvation. I'm thankful that my God is a God of love. Why would there need to be a Judgment Day if our destiny had already been pre-determined??? To even think that we have no free will and that God would create people for the sole purpose of sending them to an eternal hell of torment is unthinkable, as that would make God a monster, which He definitely is NOT! That is a false gospel straight from the gates of hell. I feel sorry for anyone who actually believes this garbage.
A
AuntieAnt
Guest
I saw the question, "How does one believe?", but I can't bring myself to read through all 5 pages of posts.
I just wanted to quickly share about the first time the spiritual veil was lifted from my eyes and I truly believed. I remember realizing without a shadow of a doubt that I was not worthy to come before God. I felt so lost and ashamed. I knew I was unclean in my heart and mind. And at that very moment, I hung my head and whispered to God, "I'm sorry." That was it. The Lord opened my eyes so that I could believe. He did it. I just said sorry. It was an absolute miracle! I was stunned that God would do that for me. \
/
How does one come to believe? If you recognize that you are lost with Christ Jesus, confess to God that you are sorry for your sins. He will open your eyes to Him.
I just wanted to quickly share about the first time the spiritual veil was lifted from my eyes and I truly believed. I remember realizing without a shadow of a doubt that I was not worthy to come before God. I felt so lost and ashamed. I knew I was unclean in my heart and mind. And at that very moment, I hung my head and whispered to God, "I'm sorry." That was it. The Lord opened my eyes so that I could believe. He did it. I just said sorry. It was an absolute miracle! I was stunned that God would do that for me. \
/How does one come to believe? If you recognize that you are lost with Christ Jesus, confess to God that you are sorry for your sins. He will open your eyes to Him.
You ask me the question of how do they know that they are of the elect and I answered you. Awaiting your reply.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Lemme see if if this reply may answer your question for ya.
The Holy man within yourself "shines light" upon the natural man. Giving the natural man an opportunity, or opportunities in, seeing the "what and where" the natural man is doing that which it is doing.
At, or during those time/s? The burden of repentance then falls onto the natural man. Should the natural man choose to start judging the company that it finds itself in the midst of!
Basically? This is a "typical response" from the natural man! Not just within oneself. But, within "gen-pop", as well.
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"
This is what the born from above man states unto the natural man! Day in? Day out!
Isaiah 28
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge (sword of the Spirit) shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Reckon I don't need to say it, but shall anyway. This Spiritual/Holy/born from above man, is this overflowing scourge! (or?) "The "beatings" will not stop, until morale improves!"
And this "struggle" of "turning the tables" of Spiritual against the Natural? Has been the the GOOD FIGHT, that has been waged, ever since the "garden of Eden incident."
Just want to add to OP
HOW does one believe? Well, repentence means not just a change of mind, but a change of heart. This is towards Jesus. The gospel is always about the person of Jesus, who he is, what he did, and what this means to us. This is the truth. Was anyone else you know died for all of mankind and raised from the dead, was buddha, mahommad, donald trump...? Nope nope and nope.
Recall, when the gospel was told to people in the book of acts, people were 'pricked in the hearts' (the kjv says this), then they asked 'what shall we do?' peter answered 'repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Lord Jesus, and you shall recieve the gift of the holy spirit'
elsewhere it says 'love the lord your God with all your heart' and 'they shall find me, if they seek me with all their heart' and 'if you confess with your mouth and believe in your HEART the Lord Jesus, you will be saved!
GOds grace acts on the heart. Which empowers us to do what God wants us to do, whch is have faith in himand do the good works He prepares us to do. But it starts with repentance - a change of heart. he gives us, a NEW heart. A heart for Jesus.
Now Jesus isnt here in the flesh on earth anymore we cant just go up to Jerusalem and see him face to face cos he resides in heaven and we cant get there without faith. But we do have his sure word in the Bible. Thats why we need to trust the Bible that its true. And it is cos 500 saw him, with their own eyes raised from the dead. The whole nation of Israel at the time pretty much knew that he was crucifed and that he rose from the dead. He ascended to heaven 40 days later. At Bethany. All those who followed him saw him taken up in a cloud.
Ok you might be thinking, how can I believe such a story? JEsus said if you dont believe me, look at the works that I do. All the works, the miracles, the healings, pointed toward his Father in heaven, who is our God showing and demonstrsting to us His love. HE still does miracles today. When people believe and pray in the name of Jesus, amazing things happen. people are healed and delivered, they have such peace and joy in their hearts that NOTHING can ever take that away from them. Even though we physically die, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and opened the door to heaven means we will too.
Talk to other christians about their encounters with the living God. For me, Jesus healed me of a crushing manic depression where I couldnt even live a normal life much less even get up in the morning to face the day. And it was not normal ups downs it was CRAZY up and downs to the point where satan had me down so low that I might as well be a walking zombie. At other times I was so high that nothing could contain me and had to be tranquilised but I was listening to the lies of the devil who was out to curse me and destroy me and tempt me to sin all the time. I lived in absolute fear and was terrified.
He delievered me from that and set me on the stable rock that is His foundation. And after delieverence never had to rely on any medication again cos I was free! GOd showed me He loved me, praise the Lord!
HOW does one believe? Well, repentence means not just a change of mind, but a change of heart. This is towards Jesus. The gospel is always about the person of Jesus, who he is, what he did, and what this means to us. This is the truth. Was anyone else you know died for all of mankind and raised from the dead, was buddha, mahommad, donald trump...? Nope nope and nope.
Recall, when the gospel was told to people in the book of acts, people were 'pricked in the hearts' (the kjv says this), then they asked 'what shall we do?' peter answered 'repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Lord Jesus, and you shall recieve the gift of the holy spirit'
elsewhere it says 'love the lord your God with all your heart' and 'they shall find me, if they seek me with all their heart' and 'if you confess with your mouth and believe in your HEART the Lord Jesus, you will be saved!
GOds grace acts on the heart. Which empowers us to do what God wants us to do, whch is have faith in himand do the good works He prepares us to do. But it starts with repentance - a change of heart. he gives us, a NEW heart. A heart for Jesus.
Now Jesus isnt here in the flesh on earth anymore we cant just go up to Jerusalem and see him face to face cos he resides in heaven and we cant get there without faith. But we do have his sure word in the Bible. Thats why we need to trust the Bible that its true. And it is cos 500 saw him, with their own eyes raised from the dead. The whole nation of Israel at the time pretty much knew that he was crucifed and that he rose from the dead. He ascended to heaven 40 days later. At Bethany. All those who followed him saw him taken up in a cloud.
Ok you might be thinking, how can I believe such a story? JEsus said if you dont believe me, look at the works that I do. All the works, the miracles, the healings, pointed toward his Father in heaven, who is our God showing and demonstrsting to us His love. HE still does miracles today. When people believe and pray in the name of Jesus, amazing things happen. people are healed and delivered, they have such peace and joy in their hearts that NOTHING can ever take that away from them. Even though we physically die, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and opened the door to heaven means we will too.
Talk to other christians about their encounters with the living God. For me, Jesus healed me of a crushing manic depression where I couldnt even live a normal life much less even get up in the morning to face the day. And it was not normal ups downs it was CRAZY up and downs to the point where satan had me down so low that I might as well be a walking zombie. At other times I was so high that nothing could contain me and had to be tranquilised but I was listening to the lies of the devil who was out to curse me and destroy me and tempt me to sin all the time. I lived in absolute fear and was terrified.
He delievered me from that and set me on the stable rock that is His foundation. And after delieverence never had to rely on any medication again cos I was free! GOd showed me He loved me, praise the Lord!
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Exceptionally well said!
Thank you kind sir!
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then!
Its the 'lost sheep' that havent heard his voice. JEsus said there are those of another flock he wants to add to his flock.
But as for calvinism yea its pretty twisted...because they believe the wrong thing about who the chosen ones are. The Bible always mentions the elect in terms of the Israelites. Believers become 'chosen in Him' meaning Jesus adopts us. JEsus was the one chosen before the foundation of the world, not believers. He said before Abraham was, I am. Its only through Jesus that we obtain salvation, but we hear His voice and believe it. My sheep hear my voice, to another they wont listen. The thing is we must always be hearing His voice amongst all the other competing voices. Satan always wants to blind peoples eyes to the truth and block peoples ears. And goats, well, they might pretend to listen but by their actions you know they cant understand Him. Cos the goats dont actually follow Jesus, they feed on junk food and go their own way and dont feed on the word of God.
Good place to start. Define beleive and then belief. And then define "no faith"
The elect in terms of the Israelites flesh? Jesus informs us his flesh profits for nothing,zip, nada . That kind of elect? Or elect in respect to the Spirit of Christ not seen, the eternal . Seeing if any man has not the unseen Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The elect in terms of the Israelites flesh? Jesus informs us his flesh profits for nothing,zip, nada . That kind of elect? Or elect in respect to the Spirit of Christ not seen, the eternal . Seeing if any man has not the unseen Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
I'm sorry but I do not see the natural man referred to in the 28th chapter of Isaiah. This is referencing God's disobedient elect saying that even their priest and prophets have erred. God is chastening his disobedient regenerate children. God chastens those that he loves and he does not chasten the wicked natural man that he does not love. Psalms 73, Paul was envious of the wicked when he saw their prosperity and their kindred and cattle flourish. Verse 5. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAQUED (Greek interpretation means = divinely punished) like other men.
The thing about it is that we all were at one time in the position of not having ears to hear until God, by his grace, without the help of man, quickened us to a new life, then our ears were opened to hear (Eph 2).
You have to hear to believe and the natural man does not have ears to hear until God regenerates him (Eph 2:5).
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
It's not calvinism, that's twisted. It's the people that claim calvinism, that twisty-doodles it all up with their pride and arrogance.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
You have got it BACKWARDS. God regenerates those who believe Christ and receive Him (John 1:12,13). '
But since you have "another gospel" everything will be backwards.
This reply will take a while to write, and probably a while to read, but I hope this helps.
First I will make note that you are upset with my theology, not my interpretation of the text. The interpretation stands. But I will clarify something. Christ's sheep are not his disciples while they are in unbelief, but when they hear their master's voice they believe. That is actually what he is saying here. You don't hear me because you are not mine. Elsewhere in John 6 Jesus says essentially the same thing in explaining the unbelief of the people who were following him. He tells them that all who the Father gives to him (the elect) will come to him and he will raise them up on the last day. He lays down his life for these sheep, his people, his bride, his elect, and secures that they will come, will believe, and will persevere to the end to be a spotless bride for himself. It's clear in many biblical passages and I'd be happy to exegete them more fully if you'd like.
Next, I cannot speak for other 'calvinists', but I don't have this problem. I believe the gospel and do so only because God has regenerated me. That shows me I am elect. I cannot judge this for anyone else, nor they for me. We have to go based on profession of faith. But I don't struggle with that at all. Sorry.
Lastly I will just say this. I know the doctrine of election and reprobation is hard to swallow. It really puts our pride in check. But the Bible teaches it plain as day.
Prob 6:14 "the Lord has made everything for it's purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil"
Rom 9:18 "so then He has mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He will"
I could go on and on but those are quite clear. God teaches us in His word that he elects and reprobates. It's where we get the words from. The Jews knew it, the apostles taught it, and the greatest exegetes of scripture have taught it. It simply is what the Bible teaches. I'm not asking you to like it, but by insulting the truth of scripture you show that you hate the true God. You said so yourself. I pray that God will open your eyes as He has done to many others. But you do not know him friend. You are still in your sins. Repent and trust in Christ alone for salvation.
May God be the Judge
You sir have it backwards.
Faith is a gift (eph 2:8,9)
My brother mentioned scripture telling us that that natural man cannot perceive the things of God. Jesus tells us we have to be born again to even see the kingdom of God in John 3. This is the gospel of the apostles, the one they learned from Christ. Regeneration precedes faith. You sir have another gospel, which is not another but a curse. Repent and trust in Christ's sovereign work alone.
May God be the Judge
It would seem those who do not hold to those five principle set forth in scripture twisty-doodles it all up with their pride and arrogance at least according to my opinion today. What's the one true difference according to you? And if you could add two three references from the bible that you thing support your hope?