How do you reconcile the first Commandment with the trinity?
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No, it's not because I "trust" commentators. It's because I'm quite familiar with the passage and know the objections. After all, I have spent the last 15 years of my life interacting with Unitarians over the deity of Christ. That, and I also come from a Modalist background. To be blunt: I know your arguments better than you can articulate them. That's why I am able to do this "rapid fire" back and forth. I am quite comfortable taking 1 Tim. 6 as a reference to the Father or to the Son. It can be understood either way. But even if it refers to the Father, it still does not "prove" the necessary connections you need, as pointed out in my previous posts.
I have frequently said that it is not fruitful to dialogue with Modalists. They hold to a Unitarian framework, and the moment I can show that Christ is not "the Father," they will default to the Socinian position, which is founded on the same framework as Modalism.
At the end of the day, Trinitarians are the only ones who truly believe in the deity of the Son. Modalists only believe "the Son" is the "earthly representative" of the "heavenly counterpart" (i.e., the Father). You believe in the deity of the Father, but not truly in the deity of "the Son." To you, He (the Son) is nothing more than a man which speaks the words of the Father who is in heaven. What a bogus view, and shameful if we're going to be honest about it.
As for 1 Jn. 5:7, I don't think it necessarily "proves" Oneness anymore than it "proves" Trinitarianism. I for one remain unconvinced that it is authentic. But then again, I am not a KJV-Onlyist. I can go to other texts which the KJV-Onlyist can't go to. There's really no "wide" attestation that proves 1 Jn. 5:7 was even used by early Modalists or Trinitarians during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries during the heat of the controversies.
I have frequently said that it is not fruitful to dialogue with Modalists. They hold to a Unitarian framework, and the moment I can show that Christ is not "the Father," they will default to the Socinian position, which is founded on the same framework as Modalism.
At the end of the day, Trinitarians are the only ones who truly believe in the deity of the Son. Modalists only believe "the Son" is the "earthly representative" of the "heavenly counterpart" (i.e., the Father). You believe in the deity of the Father, but not truly in the deity of "the Son." To you, He (the Son) is nothing more than a man which speaks the words of the Father who is in heaven. What a bogus view, and shameful if we're going to be honest about it.
As for 1 Jn. 5:7, I don't think it necessarily "proves" Oneness anymore than it "proves" Trinitarianism. I for one remain unconvinced that it is authentic. But then again, I am not a KJV-Onlyist. I can go to other texts which the KJV-Onlyist can't go to. There's really no "wide" attestation that proves 1 Jn. 5:7 was even used by early Modalists or Trinitarians during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries during the heat of the controversies.
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I'm not the one saying Christ spoke to Himself. I am not the Modalist ("Unitarian"). I am Trinitarian.
While on earth, Christ prayed to the Father, who is both, numerically and personally distinct. Christ did not simultaneously exist in "heaven" as "the Father," and on the "earth" as "the Son," as Modalists would like you to believe.
At no point in history, at no point in eternality, and at no point in the days to come, has Jesus ever pre-existed as the Father. He has always been with the Father in a "You," "I," "Me," "We," "Our" relationship. Hence, in passages like Phil. 2:7, prior to Christ "coming in the likeness of men," He "contemplated" His "equality with God" (Phil. 2:6).
"Equality with God" prior to "coming in the likeness of men" can only mean one thing: Christ existed with God the Father. And it was Christ (not the Father) that assumed flesh. Therefore, there is no need to see Christ praying to Himself when He and the Father have been numerically and personally distinct the entire time.
While on earth, Christ prayed to the Father, who is both, numerically and personally distinct. Christ did not simultaneously exist in "heaven" as "the Father," and on the "earth" as "the Son," as Modalists would like you to believe.
At no point in history, at no point in eternality, and at no point in the days to come, has Jesus ever pre-existed as the Father. He has always been with the Father in a "You," "I," "Me," "We," "Our" relationship. Hence, in passages like Phil. 2:7, prior to Christ "coming in the likeness of men," He "contemplated" His "equality with God" (Phil. 2:6).
"Equality with God" prior to "coming in the likeness of men" can only mean one thing: Christ existed with God the Father. And it was Christ (not the Father) that assumed flesh. Therefore, there is no need to see Christ praying to Himself when He and the Father have been numerically and personally distinct the entire time.
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Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Trinity teaches 3 God's as one God.
The Bible sometimes refers to God as singular but sometimes as more then one.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
One LORD???
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It is simple, the word one in Deu 6:4 can be translated "united" like when two become one in marage.
The same word for one is used in Gen 2:24 ....and they shall be one flesh.
And also the word used for God in Deu 6:4 is plural.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over.....
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There is both singular and plural pronouns used in verse 26 and 27.
The 3 are completely united as one.
The Trinity teaches 3 God's as one God.
The Bible sometimes refers to God as singular but sometimes as more then one.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
One LORD???
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It is simple, the word one in Deu 6:4 can be translated "united" like when two become one in marage.
The same word for one is used in Gen 2:24 ....and they shall be one flesh.
And also the word used for God in Deu 6:4 is plural.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over.....
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There is both singular and plural pronouns used in verse 26 and 27.
The 3 are completely united as one.
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Genesis 1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Hello stilllearning, always lovely to see you and hear your thoughts on a matter. I have been thinking about this "in the image of God" idea a bit of late also, because in Ezekiel we are told the entities which Ezekiel encountered were in the image of a man, and yet they each had four faces, feet like the hooves of calves, wings studded with eyes under which were hands, etc. LOL. How like a man is that really? .
Many say being made in the image of God means something tripartite such as soul spirit emotions, and yet really the Bible does not articulate what it means at all beyond saying we were created in His image. I can think of that as being the image He held of how it would be, such as when an artist has an image of something in their mind and creates a likeness of it to represent it, something which may or may not resemble the artist in any way. Just a few random thoughts on the matter .. I do hope you are well .
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Hello stilllearning, always lovely to see you and hear your thoughts on a matter. I have been thinking about this "in the image of God" idea a bit of late also, because in Ezekiel we are told the entities which Ezekiel encountered were in the image of a man, and yet they each had four faces, feet like the hooves of calves, wings studded with eyes under which were hands, etc. LOL. How like a man is that really? .
Many say being made in the image of God means something tripartite such as soul spirit emotions, and yet really the Bible does not articulate what it means at all beyond saying we were created in His image. I can think of that as being the image He held of how it would be, such as when an artist has an image of something in their mind and creates a likeness of it to represent it, something which may or may not resemble the artist in any way. Just a few random thoughts on the matter .
. I do hope you are well .
I always appreciate the kindness you are and the kindness you ever show. I hope your weekend is a blessing my dear friend.
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Glad you agree.
God has revealed that He has always been and always will be trinitarian by nature. So it will never change. Similarly,
God has revealed that He has always been and always will be morally good. So that also will never change.
When you look at how God describes Himself in the Scriptures, its important to note which things are described as eternally existing, or temporally existing (e.g., decisions).
God is limited by His own nature because the divine attributes of God are unchanging. If that weren't the case, then God could lie and go back on His word and become evil, and therefore, could not be 100% trustworthy.
God has revealed that He has always been and always will be trinitarian by nature. So it will never change. Similarly,
God has revealed that He has always been and always will be morally good. So that also will never change.
When you look at how God describes Himself in the Scriptures, its important to note which things are described as eternally existing, or temporally existing (e.g., decisions).
God is limited by His own nature because the divine attributes of God are unchanging. If that weren't the case, then God could lie and go back on His word and become evil, and therefore, could not be 100% trustworthy.
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So what? You keep saying the same tired excuse that Jesus Christ cannot be God because others are called Elohim, "One of the prophets of God was called a god and it was the same word Elohim."
Are any of these so-called "a gods" the one and only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? Did any of these "a gods" die for the sins of the human race? Did any of these "a gods" preexist before they were born? Did any of these "a gods" say they are without sin? Were any of these "a gods" accused of blasphemy and killed for claiming to be the Messiah? Has any of these "a gods" walked on water under their own power? Did any of these so-called "a gods" raise themselves from the dead?
Do I really have to continue Saul-to-Paul or have you heard enough to abandon this quest your on that Jesus Christ is not "The God of the Bible when He became a man to save our sorry souls. Lastly, and I just thought of this now. Why did Stephen at Acts 7:59-60 specifically pray to Jesus Christ to receive his spirit upon his death while he was getting stoned by the Jews? If you recall Jesus Christ while on the cross prayed to His Father to receive His spirit at Luke 23:46, why?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Are any of these so-called "a gods" the one and only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? Did any of these "a gods" die for the sins of the human race? Did any of these "a gods" preexist before they were born? Did any of these "a gods" say they are without sin? Were any of these "a gods" accused of blasphemy and killed for claiming to be the Messiah? Has any of these "a gods" walked on water under their own power? Did any of these so-called "a gods" raise themselves from the dead?
Do I really have to continue Saul-to-Paul or have you heard enough to abandon this quest your on that Jesus Christ is not "The God of the Bible when He became a man to save our sorry souls. Lastly, and I just thought of this now. Why did Stephen at Acts 7:59-60 specifically pray to Jesus Christ to receive his spirit upon his death while he was getting stoned by the Jews? If you recall Jesus Christ while on the cross prayed to His Father to receive His spirit at Luke 23:46, why?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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