HOW DO ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS/NON-BELIEVERS DETERMINE RIGHT FROM WRONG?????
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I failed to describe why I made those statements, but it is an important subject to explain, my friend. I asked myself the following questions and I believe that God Provided the answers about this so important subject.
Why did David number Israel when God had given Goliath-like victories to David's mighty men of valor just before that in the previous chapter? Israel should have been encouraged in faith in the Lord's victories through His Mighty men who single handedly won battles against impossible odds when the rest of Israeli soldiers fled. God was angry with His people and decided to judge them. What were their grave sins and what would be the reasons that God judged them? It came down to two reasons:
1. General Joab's men saw such victories regardless of odds (see chapter 23), and
2. the way they conducted the census.
First, the men saw victories like the days they defeated the Philistines following David taking Goliath's head. They were encouraged by his faith at that time of his youth and followed likewise into victory. It seems that this wasn't so much the case in this generation. Sooo, God was angry with them and took this opportunity to judge them.
II Samuel 24:1-3
There are probably believers in every nation, however the wicked religions that dominate the land are sending the majority to hell. It is a very sad thing. I've spoken to various denominations of Jewish people, including my own family members and they didn't resemble that which the Old Testament describes believers of that day, nor did they trust it.
Secondly, God describes the way the people are to be numbered when that is done as described in Exodus 30.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD. Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls."
If we look together at the description of how God described the census to be done, we see that the half shekel for all those 20 years old and older, the same whether young or old.
There were two purposes for this.
It was an offering to take care of the needs of the Tabernacle. This is where the sacrifices were performed. This was also an atonement offering. We know that this pointed to the Savior as all the offerings did in various ways. What was the judgement on those who did not do according to God's command?
"...That there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them."
Did Israel give the atonement offering when King David ordered the numbering?
This was not done and judgement came upon them according to the law.
The law can only condemn when it is broken.
Israel not only broke the law and was worthy of death, but they also failed to trust the Lord when facing death from their enemies on the battlefield.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
They deserved death, just as we do.
Anyone who has broken God's laws deserve death in hell. Every Jewish person that I have met was...
a.) Trusting themselves to keep the laws, which they failed miserably in doing, however most did not believe even in our God Who was described in the Old Testament.
b.) That alone condemns them. They are required to reject the false religion that they have been raised in and place their trust in Jesus Christ the Announced Son of God the Father to receive the gift of eternal life.
My friend, here's a short description of that subject that I hope will be as much a blessing to you as it's been to me.
(YouTube link below)
The Gift of God
Why did David number Israel when God had given Goliath-like victories to David's mighty men of valor just before that in the previous chapter? Israel should have been encouraged in faith in the Lord's victories through His Mighty men who single handedly won battles against impossible odds when the rest of Israeli soldiers fled. God was angry with His people and decided to judge them. What were their grave sins and what would be the reasons that God judged them? It came down to two reasons:
1. General Joab's men saw such victories regardless of odds (see chapter 23), and
2. the way they conducted the census.
First, the men saw victories like the days they defeated the Philistines following David taking Goliath's head. They were encouraged by his faith at that time of his youth and followed likewise into victory. It seems that this wasn't so much the case in this generation. Sooo, God was angry with them and took this opportunity to judge them.
II Samuel 24:1-3
- And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
- 2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
- 3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?"
There are probably believers in every nation, however the wicked religions that dominate the land are sending the majority to hell. It is a very sad thing. I've spoken to various denominations of Jewish people, including my own family members and they didn't resemble that which the Old Testament describes believers of that day, nor did they trust it.
Secondly, God describes the way the people are to be numbered when that is done as described in Exodus 30.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD. Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls."
If we look together at the description of how God described the census to be done, we see that the half shekel for all those 20 years old and older, the same whether young or old.
There were two purposes for this.
It was an offering to take care of the needs of the Tabernacle. This is where the sacrifices were performed. This was also an atonement offering. We know that this pointed to the Savior as all the offerings did in various ways. What was the judgement on those who did not do according to God's command?
"...That there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them."
Did Israel give the atonement offering when King David ordered the numbering?
This was not done and judgement came upon them according to the law.
The law can only condemn when it is broken.
Israel not only broke the law and was worthy of death, but they also failed to trust the Lord when facing death from their enemies on the battlefield.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
They deserved death, just as we do.
Anyone who has broken God's laws deserve death in hell. Every Jewish person that I have met was...
a.) Trusting themselves to keep the laws, which they failed miserably in doing, however most did not believe even in our God Who was described in the Old Testament.
b.) That alone condemns them. They are required to reject the false religion that they have been raised in and place their trust in Jesus Christ the Announced Son of God the Father to receive the gift of eternal life.
My friend, here's a short description of that subject that I hope will be as much a blessing to you as it's been to me.
(YouTube link below)
The Gift of God
Maybe Andrew is not well versed in atheism lifestyle and their philosophy so maybe it would be more honest now so he speaks for himself while trying to defend ideologies he’s not very well aware of.
Hopefully we will see him again sometime next week or two.
Hopefully we will see him again sometime next week or two.
Andrew seems to be very capable of understanding his position.
You said, "Andrew is not well versed in atheism lifestyle and their philosophy so maybe it would be more honest now so he speaks for himself while trying to defend ideologies he’s not very well aware of."
which I find that comment odd because you said to him in an earlier post :
The atheist ideology says that we are a bunch of cells. So you are meaningless. I am meaningless. We are all meaningless.
This is why when we discuss things like wars or tragedies, my point to them is that they don’t have any moral grounds to say anything because we all live in our heads according to them.
So which is it? He knows because you told him, or he can't know because I told him?
So far he says that he doesn’t agree with what I said but also says that he’s not an atheist.
So he either needs to have a proper discussion about atheism which I gave or he needs to have a discussion about what he believes.
Because I made a clear distinction between a personal experience and an ideology but he either wants to mix them or wants to defend something without taking a personal position.
So he either needs to have a proper discussion about atheism which I gave or he needs to have a discussion about what he believes.
Because I made a clear distinction between a personal experience and an ideology but he either wants to mix them or wants to defend something without taking a personal position.
Also the moral argument in not something that I use with atheists by the way since they’re always materialistic.
I tell them this:
1. The universe exists
2. The fine tuning argument exists.
3. The supernatural / miracles exist.
4. Jesus Christ was here.
and this is where the discussion of free-will begins because God says “Here I am. Unimaginably big, beyond your understanding. I gave you free will to accept me or reject me”.
I tell them this:
1. The universe exists
2. The fine tuning argument exists.
3. The supernatural / miracles exist.
4. Jesus Christ was here.
and this is where the discussion of free-will begins because God says “Here I am. Unimaginably big, beyond your understanding. I gave you free will to accept me or reject me”.
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Sorry - I had to hurry to get the 'bus. I don't have good internet access at home and have to use the library computer when convenient.
If you want to post in the way you suggested, feel free. I'll try to respond, for what good it will do. Maybe I'm missing something you're getting at, but from what you've said, I can't see the validity of your point.
Well if there isn’t anything to say, then there isn’t anything to say, but the point was that Atheists are in contradiction to their position many times Especially in the way they use their language. This is a funny and long topic to me which may not be fruitful to me, you or anybody else, but during my talks with atheists only a 20 year old was able to think critically about the teaching/programming he got as an atheist and ended up believing after.
But what Bob Carabio and a few others here said about atheists are very true because that’s my experience with them.
Now if you’re an atheist and would like to discuss anything for fun, pleasure or knowledge then we sure can.
‘But if there isn’t anything to talk about then we don’t have to.
But what Bob Carabio and a few others here said about atheists are very true because that’s my experience with them.
Now if you’re an atheist and would like to discuss anything for fun, pleasure or knowledge then we sure can.
‘But if there isn’t anything to talk about then we don’t have to.
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JOHNDB, you say, "Atheists use a "collective morality " that is defined by society at large..." And I do believe your claim is corrrect. But there are obvious problems with that claim.
Here are some of the societies at large that developed their own ethos of morality principles: Hitler's Nazi Germany, Stalin's Communist Empire, and Mao's Communist Empire. Each of these societies existed recently, in historical terms.
Each of these societies ended up murdering tens of millions of people, claiming it was morally right.
Of course, years down the road, the entire world is completely disgusted by the 'Collective Morality' of these societies.
So, how can anyone possible claim that the atheist viewpoint/philosophy of a 'Collective Morality' could hold water?
And, in today's world you have the same 'Collective Moraliity' going on in North Korea/Iran/Cuba.......etc/etc.....
MY POINT IS THAT IT IS FOOLISH FOR ATHIESTS TO CLAIM ANY TYPE OF 'COLLECTIVE MORALITY' FROM SOCIETY AT LARGE.
Here are some of the societies at large that developed their own ethos of morality principles: Hitler's Nazi Germany, Stalin's Communist Empire, and Mao's Communist Empire. Each of these societies existed recently, in historical terms.
Each of these societies ended up murdering tens of millions of people, claiming it was morally right.
Of course, years down the road, the entire world is completely disgusted by the 'Collective Morality' of these societies.
So, how can anyone possible claim that the atheist viewpoint/philosophy of a 'Collective Morality' could hold water?
And, in today's world you have the same 'Collective Moraliity' going on in North Korea/Iran/Cuba.......etc/etc.....
MY POINT IS THAT IT IS FOOLISH FOR ATHIESTS TO CLAIM ANY TYPE OF 'COLLECTIVE MORALITY' FROM SOCIETY AT LARGE.
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When I first joined Christian Chat there were several Atheists here. By the time I had been here about two weeks I had been called a Judaizer which I didn't even know what that meant at the time and regularly attacked by the Christians when I was posting.
I really didn't expect that and I thought about leaving Christian Chat. I found the Atheist and started talking with them and they treated me better than the Christians. I asked them questions and most seemed as though they had some Bible knowledge and who knows if maybe if some of them hadn't come from strict religious backgrounds. Somewhere along the line they quit on religion.
We had some good discussions without attacking each other and I prayed for several of them and made friends with a couple of them. I never wanted to give up on them because I know that God is able to get through to anyone in his and their timing. I just felt like I needed to be a seed planter ask them questions that just might make them think about it and maybe God in a different way.
A lot of them didn't understand a God who would allow suffering, many thought if there was a God then he was vindictive, many didn't understand why Christians treat each other so badly. I personally have a little bit of a tough time with that one myself. I learned that an Atheist isn't any more lost than we are cause if you really think about it we all come into this world lost and have to learn that we need to be saved and then we all have to make a choice that we want to be saved and give our hearts to God. Atheists just haven't done that yet.
I feel they need prayer for a softened heart and a mind that will let God in, that their minds could be opened to allow themselves to believe that there is a God that loves them and is waiting for them to come to know him and accept the salvation that is offered to them as freely as to any of us after all we are all lost sinners in need of a Savior.
I really didn't expect that and I thought about leaving Christian Chat. I found the Atheist and started talking with them and they treated me better than the Christians. I asked them questions and most seemed as though they had some Bible knowledge and who knows if maybe if some of them hadn't come from strict religious backgrounds. Somewhere along the line they quit on religion.
We had some good discussions without attacking each other and I prayed for several of them and made friends with a couple of them. I never wanted to give up on them because I know that God is able to get through to anyone in his and their timing. I just felt like I needed to be a seed planter ask them questions that just might make them think about it and maybe God in a different way.
A lot of them didn't understand a God who would allow suffering, many thought if there was a God then he was vindictive, many didn't understand why Christians treat each other so badly. I personally have a little bit of a tough time with that one myself. I learned that an Atheist isn't any more lost than we are cause if you really think about it we all come into this world lost and have to learn that we need to be saved and then we all have to make a choice that we want to be saved and give our hearts to God. Atheists just haven't done that yet.
I feel they need prayer for a softened heart and a mind that will let God in, that their minds could be opened to allow themselves to believe that there is a God that loves them and is waiting for them to come to know him and accept the salvation that is offered to them as freely as to any of us after all we are all lost sinners in need of a Savior.
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P
Short answer to OP's post is “civil law'. To understand OP's>>>> So, if I'm an atheist/agnostic/non-believer/humanist/secularist, how do I determine my moral code, right from wrong? >>>>>>.Get an understanding of 'Christianity vs. state vs church vs Jewish tradition' throughout history.
The OP's follow on question does not inform any resolution as to how and why 'atheists and others' have thrived while Christians have 'survived', at times under severe persecution.
f life on earth is just a random coincidence, how could there be any right or wrong and what would it matter?
The OP's follow on question does not inform any resolution as to how and why 'atheists and others' have thrived while Christians have 'survived', at times under severe persecution.
f life on earth is just a random coincidence, how could there be any right or wrong and what would it matter?
To an atheist morality tends to be subjective whereas to theists, such as Christians, we believe morality is objective. The idea for atheists is that morals are opinions not facts. The idea for Christians is that since God is eternal and unchanging that morals are objective and unchanging.
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I agree. There’s a monumental difference between planting seeds and throwing pearls before swine. Where I work we have a saying, “go where you’re celebrated.”
On the job I’m required to contact people under our care and offer them pastoral services. I recently called someone three times but all they did was duck and dodge me. I washed my hands of them with my supervisor’s blessings. No more pearls before swine for me.
On the job I’m required to contact people under our care and offer them pastoral services. I recently called someone three times but all they did was duck and dodge me. I washed my hands of them with my supervisor’s blessings. No more pearls before swine for me.