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How can one learn?
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“These things I command you, that ye love one another.”
John 15:17
“But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:27-32, 35-38 KJV
Jesus was teaching us how to live as our father in heaven lives us love forgives it doesn’t bear grudges , love doesn’t take revenge it pardons an offense , love gives and shares with the needy , it acts on the compassion we feel ect the things Jesus taught in the gospel are Gods love and his ways this is how the gospel and hearing and believing changes us as we begin to accept and follow the lords word we are learning to love with his love in us
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evyaniy
Guest
“I will often walk an extra mile with someone when i think they are open to correction..”
Amen he’s the source of it all
“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us:
and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”
1 John 3:16
amen to what you said there we look at Jesus d see the lord but we also see the image of what we are supposed to be the sins and daughters of God.
ashen we come to acknolwedge all the sins we’ve committed and realize what that means by the law of sin and death . What Jesus did for us on the cross becomes clear and the most important thing that could have happened
“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.”
Romans 5:6-11 KJV
we aren’t called to die physically for others and bear thier sins like Jesus but we are called to lay our selfishness down and look to tigers and how we can help and affect them for Jesus in this world We can say “I love everyone “ forever but if we don’t act like we live then in deed and in truth we’re just deceiving ourselves it’s not hard to treat other people the right way but when they don’t treat us right , it then becomes difficult
god forgave us , and commands us to forgive others , God is merciful and gave us when we were in need and commands us to do the same ….the fisoel is meant to be like a mirror we can look and see the children of god and how they live upright before the lord just by trusting Jesus and following after his teachings
That isn't at all what I am talking of, I am talking of name calling, unfunded accusations, and name calling. We both know that is the Spirit of HaShem at work.
I am sorry but right now I don't have time to reply to this one. With Isreal declaring war today, I have friends there I am trying to get in contact with. Please over look me for a short time, as I will be MIA.
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, brings
adultery upon her. And he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 5:32
i understand.
you and i, our prayers are in the same place, in agreement.
and my prayers are also for you - trust God; be vigilant but be untroubled.
((for when you have the time to look))
surely you've confused me with someone else. i haven't acted like that and i haven't been able to read the whole thread.
i agree that when discussion turns away from God and His words, and towards persons, we have totally lost the course. if you said this and i had been guilty of it, I pray God hold me accountable and show me my error, and correct me - buy in this particular time i am quite sure you mixede. up with someone else.
and i understand that. i see that a dozen people are trying to talk to you and i know keeping track of that isn't easy. i have been in the same place. no problem.
If you get time, my point was this, distilled:
The laws God gave man have clearly changed over time. scripture attests to this ((i have detailed reference)). so i do not agree with your interpretation of Malichai, that if God changes His commandments it means He Himself changes. i gave several evidences, but IMO Hebrews 7 is strongest because it is explicit that the Law had changed with the change of priesthood.
i hope for peace
If we are granted that, i look. forward to continuing friendly discussion.
You are right you have not acted in the manner I described. I am just weary of those actions, although it has helped me to see why most Jewish people dislike talking with today's Christians. Like them I am seen as a lost soul, only that really isn't up to man to decide.
As for my friends, I happy to say they are all safe for now. I pray they make it through this, and find peace at last.
Being as I am a bit slow, due to being dyslexic, Let take this one topic at a time. We can start with clean and unclean if you don't mind.
Genesis 1:29 Though it is true that Adam and Eve were given plaints to eat, we must keep in mind that in garden there was only one commandment ever given. Not to eat from the tree of knowledge. It was after their sin, that we were given the Laws that were intended to bring us back into the relationship with HaShem that man kind enjoyed in the garden.
How ever clean and unclean were know before this time. Gen. 7:8, Gen. 8:20.
Genesis 9:3 Though it may seem that way by simply reading the passage, and I do see your point as well how one may come to that conclusion. However we must keep in mind that HaShem made the distinction between the 2 before He said Noah may eat flesh. many things that we see in the Word may seem to be one thing when really it isn't, as we will see as time goes on. How ever let me give you an example.
When Moses came down, and said here is what we have to do. How many of them were given with no instruction as to how? Many were. How did they go about sacrifice, carve into stone with out the use of metal chisels, and so on? I know that not many follow the idea that the Oral teachings are not accurate. I remember in like the 3rd or 4th grade, the teacher whispered something in a students ear. That was passed around the class. when it reached the end the last student said it out load. It was nothing like was first said. Things do get a bit distorted like that. Any way, we will get to that in time as well.
Leviticus 11 It is true that we are given a detailed list of clean and unclean here, Noah had to understand this to load the ark. Now we follow the teachings of some, HaShem brought the animals, so they would say Noah didn't know. I will give you that one, if you like. Yet do we think Noah put on a blind fold, and didn't know what was going on at all? Or that he cared for them all and never seen how many of what were there? Noah know, and I would say he understood clean and unclean.
Mark 7:19 If we back up and read the full chapter we find this is not about food. Yeshua first replied to and corrected the Pharisees, about their traditions. Yeshua did nothing to change the Laws, rather correct the understanding in a manner that fit the situation.
As an example of this. If we were to teach someone how to change a tire, I teach them to always tighten the lug nuts in a star pattern, and you teach them to do so by just going around them. Is one wrong and the other right? So long as the tire doesn't fall off both can be right. So tradition isn't all bad, so long as it does conform to the laws that apply to the job at hand. In this case keeping the tire on the car is the law we must strive to achieve.
Acts 10 Let me first lay the ground work on this one.
Cornelius as we all know was a gentile, a roman centurion. At this time, it was not legal for a Hebrew to shack hands with a gentile, much less go into ones house. If found doing so, they would face death by stoning. Cornelius was a believer, and was told to send for Peter.
Now HaShem knowing Peter wouldn't go because of this UNBIBLICAL law, had to set Peter at easy with going, so bring on the vision. Now 15 seems to where every wishes to look, never mind they are overlooking so much in the lead up to this.
As we know a sinner would be unclean spiritually. Well so long as they shower, if not then they are just not fit to be around no matter what. LOL
In 17 we read that peter wasn't sure what to make of this vision. There comes a knock at the door. in 23 Peter tells them, come on in, (even though that act could get him killed). later we find Peter telling Cornelius the following. 28, You know by Law I shouldn't be here, However HaShem has shown me that is wrong.
How did HaShem show Peter it was wrong to call any man unclean? Through the vision. Peter many have not understood at first, as most would have trouble with that. Yet when the gentiles showed up, Peter understood, and welcomed them in. Then through his explanation we find the vision wasn't about food at all, it was about mankind.
Romans 14 Here we have the same teaching to some degree. 2 Paul is saying much thing same as Peter, that HaShem has expected everyone, not just the ones we like. Trust me, if you invited me for dinner, I would eat, even you had pork. Now I may not eat pork, but there would sides to go with it, I would gladly eat. Does this make me wrong? Not at all. Would it be wrong for me to say how wrong you are? Yes it would for many reason.
10 We will face our judgment, we simply can't get around that. Unlike sneaking into the theater as we did when we were kids. Well I only did it once. Really thought I had done something, until I found out I got in free anyway. LOL
14 Here is where things go sideways for a lot of people. Paul tells us no food by it's self isn't wrong. So you will never hear me tell someone not to eat anything. However, if we understand something we find the Law hasn't changed at all. You see in the mind of any Hebrew person, even today, if you say food, they only think of clean meat. As it is HaShem never turns us away, and is happy we came to Him. He takes us as we are, and then through His word, teaches us the things we need to know.
I already hear you my friend. The Laws that are written in our hearts and minds may not be clearly understood in all their details by us. Yet everyone knows right from wrong, and that is what the Law is intended to do in our lives. Oddly it still does this work.
Just as Paul made clear we should not condemn others for their faith in verse 20, even though he is speaking of food. We must look past the word, and seek the meaning. You see, symbolism is used through out the Word, and we may miss the meaning of it, after all we are only human, and we do follow our hearts. Nothing wrong with that, yet knowing this, we should be humble in all we do. Never forgetting that I John can be wrong, and may need a nudge to get me back on track. So if you see me slipping away, slap me up side the head. However if what you see is a man doing his best to live a life in accordance with the Word, we should seek to see if His heart is the right place or not. If not, then by all means point it out to them.
I am going to stop here and await your reply. I won't forget to get back to the other topics, As I said this is the best way for me.
The idea of being Torah observant can take many forms. In the minds of some they wish to place sacrifice as something you have to do. Others look at that and think, "What do you even know about it?' I am one that looks at what is said, and move on from there. You see, there are some aspects of Torah that are only for the Temple Priest, as we are not Temple priest they don't apply to us. Some are for the High Priest, and hold on barring on the others that not High Priest. Some for women, that hold nothing for men, and so on.
Living out the Torah in ones life comes down to just one thing. Understanding how it is to be applied. We live it out not be saved, we live it out to honor HaShem who gave us salvation, out of our love for Him, and respect for the King.
My way of thinking goes like this. salvation by works was never a thing. We can look through the full Tanakh and see this as fact. After all Abraham followed HaShem by FAITH, and that was counted as righteousness. We today follow Yeshua in faith, and that is counted the same. When one walks in Torah, they walk in love for everyone around them. You can't show love by treating someone in a way that doesn't line up with Torah. If we lir to them, try to take their wife, dog, car or what ever, that isn't love.
Let me ask you, What do you see when you read the Word? Does it strat with a vengeful King, then suddenly that King thinks no Love is the way to go. Or do see HaShem as kind and loving from cover to cover?
Once more, for use the believe in the Birth, death, and resurrection, we follow His Law, as best we can, out of love and respect for the Creator, and to honor Him. We know that it can't bring salvation, yet we understand we will be judged by it.
Jas 2:12So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.
Keep in mind that Paul didn't have any form of the New testament to use in his teachings. He in fact held to, and followed Torah, as is clear by his own words, and actions. He kept the feast Acts 18:21, and followed the laws that pertain to to vow he had taken, Acts 18:18 and 21:23-24.
I know I got off base a bit here, I must apologize for that in one regard. Yet in another I feel no need to. I hope this helps you understand at lest my stand on the matter.
Before I find myself faced with this, I am going to try and make it clear what the Word tells us on sacrifice. It should make that topic mute. in Deut. 12:5-6 we find HaShem telling them to ONLY give sacrifices in one place, and on one alter. As the alter isn't there, it would be sin to offer any sacrifice.
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evyaniy
Guest
That is an excellent explanation and answered the question precisely and is very much appreciated. Thank you so much for your clearly stated reply. It honors your faith and understanding as you are honoring Him. Beautiful
Well the way I see it, as do you it seems, we must understand where a person's mind is. Though at times it may seem they do little to try and shine a light on their reasoning. I am glad that helped, and by doing so it will add in any further discusion, I hope.
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evyaniy
Guest
So love is the central tenet of Torah observance, just as it should be and would be expected. Love for Him and love for others. How you choose to worship is a personal matter and for families to decide according to their conscience. Thank you again
Though I have not gotten a reply on the last post, I am going to move foreword. The next topic you entered is,
laws requiring circumcision have changed
- Genesis 17 — circumcision is commanded physically long before the Law of Moses. in fact Moses is nearly killed by God for it, if not for the intervention of Zipporah.
- Leviticus 12 —physical circumcision is reiterated in the Law of Moses
- John 7:23 — circumcision precedes sabbath. very important!
- Romans 2 — circumcision is "nothing"
Ex. 4:24-26 Zipporah did think that HaShem was going to kill Moses, so she circumcised her son. After that HaShem left them alone. What many fail to see, is that HaShem never said they would die, rather they would be cut off. Now I will not speek as to HaShem's thoughts, or actions. After all we really don't know why He did many of the things He had, and to speak as though we do, would be misleading at lest, and some may say boastful, or arrogant at best.
However, the Sages say Zipporah misunderstood, and only thought HaShem was going to kill him.
In any case it does show just how impotent circumcision is for the Hebrew people.
As noted it was repeted for all of Israel at mount Sinai, as after 400 years it may have been set aside by many. Also as you made note of it being a physical one, adn not a spiritual one, it seems you already know there 2 aspects to this. If we use one to try and make it seem as though the other is changed, we our self a disservice. In fact we do with so much of the Torah. In some cases it is done with the whole of Torah. When in fact most of the Torah is based on spiritual, and not physical. As we can see in the words of Yeshua almost every time He is confronted by the religious leads of His time.
John 7:23
It is true that to follow one law over another may seem as though you have to brake one to keep the other. The thing is, if we see it that way, we have missed to point all together. You see it my understanding, (and we know I can be wrong), that at some point the Sanhedrin has made the decision that if a circumcision fell on a sabbath, it was to be done. As with any of things some may wish to point out like the medical field, fighters, police, jailers, military, and so on. Working on the Sabbath is not a violation of of that commandment. They serve the needs of the people, and help to persevere life. Unlike many may think, HaShem does place life over His laws. It was with this reasoning that circumcision was permitted on Sabbath.
Now if we look at with a logical mind, we find that Yeshua didn't say don't do that anymore, rather He made clear that to heal was an even greater need.
Although some may wish to say I am being a bit one sided on this, or even hypocritical on this, that simply isn't true. As I do see that to fulfill one commandment should never be replaced with a need to fulfill another. As I have pointed out before, much of what is rabbinic law, stands in conflict with Biblical law. It is up everyone of us to seek a balance in nay conflilict we think is there. We can only do so by looking at the full context of any topic. That is where a word study comes into play. If we read every passage on a topic, we can see more clearly how it all fits. If we pick one or 2 passages from a chapter, and build a doctrine around just that little bit, we again do a disservice to our selfs, and any we may wish help understand.
Rom. 2
Lets do fast walk through on this chapter, in hopes of finding the truth of it's teachings. Keep in mind, I am no better than any of you, and like you, I have sin in my life. Even though I try hard to walk in everything HaShem has said, I do come up short, so never think I am passing judgement on any one.
As we see in 1-11 we find that Paul is addressing the idea that some just on sinning. Doing the same thing over and over, making said sin willful. Willful sin some say can't be forgiven. Here however Paul is trying to get us to see that as a sinner, we have no right to pass judgement on anyone. also one may wish to note that once we turn from said sin and walk in the Torah as best w can, the past sin can be forgiven.
12-13 makes it clear that if a person sins, damnation will come up on them. Yet when we do more than just hear the law, rather we do our best to live it out in our lives we are blessed, and will find eternal life. You see when Paul tells us we are made right with HaShem when we follow His Law, I don't think that was only for the Hebrew people. My reason for this, Paul makes a point of bring the Gentiles in as having the Law written on our hearts. Even we have never heard it, it shows when we do what is right.
Now in 20 we find a point I try to make about myself often. Even though I think I know Torah, and do my best to live by it, what I think I know is nothing more than a drop of water being added to the sea. None of us hold the right to be teachers, as we will all make a mess of what others with what we think we know. However, we must work to learn the full truth. That is why I am here on this site, and seeking the things that do stand in conflict with what I think I know. We can only learn when we are willing to step out side of our own understanding and take an honest look at things that don't a line with that.
I can hear it now, "Well you act like you know it all." That is simply not true. What sets me apart fo so many, is that I look at the full context of a thing, and seek the truth from that, rather than picking a single word out, or a verse that seem to fit my understanding. Does this make me 100% correct in my assessment, not even.
In the last verse of this chapte, we find Paul speeking of spiritual circumcision. As he said, true circumcision is when a persons heart is right with with HaShem. That is what salvation truly is. As Paul said, it isn't hearing the Law, it is doing the Law, that makes one right with HaShem.