Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
- Thread starter GWH
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We can harmonize 1John 2:19, which refers to pseudo-Christians whose profession of faith in Jesus as Lord were insincere so that they were never saved,
with
1Iohn 2:24, which indicates that genuine Christians may/will NOT "see" the Gospel remains in them so they will remain in the Son,
thusly:
Both false conversion and repudiation of genuine conversion aka apostasy are possibilities.
Are we ready for a fourth couplet?
with
1Iohn 2:24, which indicates that genuine Christians may/will NOT "see" the Gospel remains in them so they will remain in the Son,
thusly:
Both false conversion and repudiation of genuine conversion aka apostasy are possibilities.
Are we ready for a fourth couplet?
Review:
Couplet #1
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
(Harmonization) “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 may refer to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning by repudiating his/her saving faith.
Couplet #2
1John 2:19-20 & 27: "They [antichrists] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (versus)
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
(harmonization) if those who have the HS do not see that it/the Gospel truth remains in them, then they will also go out and reveal that they had not belonged. This means either that apostasy is possible or that assurance of salvation is impossible (the latter is more in accord with other Scriptures).
Couplet #3
1Cor. 1:8 - "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (versus)
1Cor. 15:2 - "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
(harmonization) Jesus will keep us strong to the end if we continue to believe the Gospel.
Couplet #4
John 10:27-29 – “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”
(versus)
Col. 1:22-23 - “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
(harmonization?)
Couplet #1
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
(Harmonization) “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 may refer to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning by repudiating his/her saving faith.
Couplet #2
1John 2:19-20 & 27: "They [antichrists] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (versus)
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
(harmonization) if those who have the HS do not see that it/the Gospel truth remains in them, then they will also go out and reveal that they had not belonged. This means either that apostasy is possible or that assurance of salvation is impossible (the latter is more in accord with other Scriptures).
Couplet #3
1Cor. 1:8 - "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (versus)
1Cor. 15:2 - "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
(harmonization) Jesus will keep us strong to the end if we continue to believe the Gospel.
Couplet #4
John 10:27-29 – “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”
(versus)
Col. 1:22-23 - “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
(harmonization?)
Couplet #4
John 10:27-29 – “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”
(versus)
Col. 1:22-23 - “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
(harmonization)
Jesus gives eternal life to whoever heeds his teaching about the gospel,
and no one else is able to separate the believer who perseveres from salvation.
I detect waning interest in SBS, which does indeed require perseverance.
However, by now we see a pattern emerging: Understanding election requires
accepting NT teaching that apparent apostasy is possible.
John 10:27-29 – “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”
(versus)
Col. 1:22-23 - “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
(harmonization)
Jesus gives eternal life to whoever heeds his teaching about the gospel,
and no one else is able to separate the believer who perseveres from salvation.
I detect waning interest in SBS, which does indeed require perseverance.
However, by now we see a pattern emerging: Understanding election requires
accepting NT teaching that apparent apostasy is possible.
Now let us take a different tack and apply this understanding
as we analyze the OP on the UGE thread, which begins:
1. “Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel”
This statement is patently false, because the entire Bible is the story of those who had saving faith,
which Hebrews 11 summarizes. A true statement might be “Many souls have not believed GW.”
2. “Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve, all humans are born with an inherited sin nature, and are bent on sinning instead of following God Having a saving faith is against their very nature! (Romans 3:9-18)”
This statement has elements of truth but requires tweaking. Human nature was created good but not perfect,
and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Hebrews 5:8-9), which moral perfection
should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)
Thoughts?
as we analyze the OP on the UGE thread, which begins:
1. “Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel”
This statement is patently false, because the entire Bible is the story of those who had saving faith,
which Hebrews 11 summarizes. A true statement might be “Many souls have not believed GW.”
2. “Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve, all humans are born with an inherited sin nature, and are bent on sinning instead of following God Having a saving faith is against their very nature! (Romans 3:9-18)”
This statement has elements of truth but requires tweaking. Human nature was created good but not perfect,
and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Hebrews 5:8-9), which moral perfection
should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)
Thoughts?
Back in the day when computers were becoming a thing they had books out like understanding windows for dummies. So for me I view the bible as understanding God for dummies. So I find the bible is about application and is result driven. Our how do we live the bible so we can become like Christ.
In Peter he calls Lot righteous and says he was vexed by the evil he was around. So vexation of course is being troubled or deeply bothered for a simplistic answer. However, I think that the vexation also can influence to cause a improper response. In Lot's case he offered up his daughter's to the men of Sodom. So I recognize I live in a evil world and I am vexed so it is going to influence the prism I look at the bible under and how to apply it. So I realize I can be wrong so my pride of trying to be right should not get in the way of changing when needed.
I also realize for me that knowledge puffs up. So even if I am right I can still be wrong because it may be pride I am operating in. A good example of this is the Pharisees. Christ said do as they say not as they do because their heart was far from God even though their doctrine was on mark. That is the first thing Christ addresses in his letter to the churches and even us as part of the church. He tells Ephesus that their doctrine is sound but there is a problem they have lost their first love. So I have to weigh is this producing love or is this just a knowledge ego trip for me. I have to be a doer and not just a hearer because just hearing for the sake of knowledge will puff me up.
In Peter he calls Lot righteous and says he was vexed by the evil he was around. So vexation of course is being troubled or deeply bothered for a simplistic answer. However, I think that the vexation also can influence to cause a improper response. In Lot's case he offered up his daughter's to the men of Sodom. So I recognize I live in a evil world and I am vexed so it is going to influence the prism I look at the bible under and how to apply it. So I realize I can be wrong so my pride of trying to be right should not get in the way of changing when needed.
I also realize for me that knowledge puffs up. So even if I am right I can still be wrong because it may be pride I am operating in. A good example of this is the Pharisees. Christ said do as they say not as they do because their heart was far from God even though their doctrine was on mark. That is the first thing Christ addresses in his letter to the churches and even us as part of the church. He tells Ephesus that their doctrine is sound but there is a problem they have lost their first love. So I have to weigh is this producing love or is this just a knowledge ego trip for me. I have to be a doer and not just a hearer because just hearing for the sake of knowledge will puff me up.
And I am not sure what you are not following, but Paul defended his credentials as a model Pharisee to Agrippa in Acts 26:1-5
and Gal. 1:13-14.
Paul shared his realization of missing the mark in Phil. 3:3-11.
Lot was wide of the mark by offering his daughters for sex with the Sodomites in Gen. 19:4-8.
and Gal. 1:13-14.
Paul shared his realization of missing the mark in Phil. 3:3-11.
Lot was wide of the mark by offering his daughters for sex with the Sodomites in Gen. 19:4-8.
3. "All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18)."
These statements are true and already harmonized, although they do not note as Paul did toward the end of his ministry that God's Plan A for setting humans free is by them being raised by Christian parents, so they learn to love God from infancy (2Tim. 2:15-17).
4. "Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them, which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell."
Yes, misery loves company, but God's plan is for those who were not taught to have saving faith from infancy to repent of Satanism and do so ASAP (1Tim. 2:3-4).
5. "Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes... Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15). Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further."
Indeed, and upon investigation it should be learned that God wishes to call everyone to be saved/elect (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16),
and that in John 16:15 Jesus was speaking to the disciples he had chosen to be the twelve apostles (although Judas would commit apostasy and be replaced by Paul).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18)."
These statements are true and already harmonized, although they do not note as Paul did toward the end of his ministry that God's Plan A for setting humans free is by them being raised by Christian parents, so they learn to love God from infancy (2Tim. 2:15-17).
4. "Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them, which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell."
Yes, misery loves company, but God's plan is for those who were not taught to have saving faith from infancy to repent of Satanism and do so ASAP (1Tim. 2:3-4).
5. "Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes... Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15). Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further."
Indeed, and upon investigation it should be learned that God wishes to call everyone to be saved/elect (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16),
and that in John 16:15 Jesus was speaking to the disciples he had chosen to be the twelve apostles (although Judas would commit apostasy and be replaced by Paul).
You had originally said " but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting."
So I used examples to point to the two that generally guide me humility and love. Which you said you agree except of course then Paul and Lot. So just did not understand the principals you were getting at or the underlining point. No biggie though and thanks for your time truly
So I used examples to point to the two that generally guide me humility and love. Which you said you agree except of course then Paul and Lot. So just did not understand the principals you were getting at or the underlining point. No biggie though and thanks for your time truly
You had originally said " but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting."
So I used examples to point to the two that generally guide me humility and love. Which you said you agree except of course then Paul and Lot. So just did not understand the principals you were getting at or the underlining point. No biggie though and thanks for your time truly
So I used examples to point to the two that generally guide me humility and love. Which you said you agree except of course then Paul and Lot. So just did not understand the principals you were getting at or the underlining point. No biggie though and thanks for your time truly
What do you think about my points in #430?
Continuing with a systematic analysis of the OP in the UGE thread:
6. “… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!"
Scripture regarding the doctrine of election and predestination is not sufficiently clear to preclude confusion and debate. The need is to harmonize the Scriptures sounding as though God determines who will be elect with Scriptures indicating that souls have moral free will, but in order to do this it is first necessary to harmonize Scriptures stressing the sovereignty of God with those focusing on His love for humanity.
Scriptures stressing sovereignty may be represented by the following:
1. Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
2. Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’”
God’s Word stressing love for humanity may be represented by the following two of the "seven pearls":
3. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
4. 1Tim. 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified? My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #1 that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell, and Paul does say in #4 that God wants all to be saved, so the Son chooses to reveal the Father to all who choose to seek Him per Matt. 7:7.
Although #2 by itself may be understood as indicating God withholds His Word regarding the kingdom of God from those He hates, both Jesus and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6 (in Matt. 13:14-15 & Acts 28:26-27) in a way that puts the responsibility for not receiving God’s Word (GW) on those whose hearts are hardened or not open to it (in agreement with #3).
Understanding that God loves and wants to save everyone, we are ready to consider Scripture concerning election/predestination.
GW stressing God’s role in election may be represented by the following:
5. John 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
6. Rom. 9:11&16, “In order that God’s purpose in election might stand… It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”
GW stressing the role of human agency in election may be represented by the following:
7. Deut. 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
8. Matt. 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified? My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #5 that his disciples could not have chosen to refuse to follow him, and God does say in #7 that He provides the opportunity to choose life or death, so Jesus saying that he chose his disciples means that God urges souls to choose life.
Although #6 may be understood as indicating human volition has no role in salvation, #8 reveals Jesus lamenting the fact that although God offers salvation to souls, those unwilling to cooperate are not saved.
This interpretation/harmonization affirms BOTH God’s sovereignty and love for humanity as well as His elective will and credit for salvation AND humanity’s God-given volition and accountability for cooperating with God’s will that souls accept salvation via faith in The Elect, who is Christ Jesus.
6. “… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!"
Scripture regarding the doctrine of election and predestination is not sufficiently clear to preclude confusion and debate. The need is to harmonize the Scriptures sounding as though God determines who will be elect with Scriptures indicating that souls have moral free will, but in order to do this it is first necessary to harmonize Scriptures stressing the sovereignty of God with those focusing on His love for humanity.
Scriptures stressing sovereignty may be represented by the following:
1. Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
2. Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’”
God’s Word stressing love for humanity may be represented by the following two of the "seven pearls":
3. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
4. 1Tim. 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified? My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #1 that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell, and Paul does say in #4 that God wants all to be saved, so the Son chooses to reveal the Father to all who choose to seek Him per Matt. 7:7.
Although #2 by itself may be understood as indicating God withholds His Word regarding the kingdom of God from those He hates, both Jesus and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6 (in Matt. 13:14-15 & Acts 28:26-27) in a way that puts the responsibility for not receiving God’s Word (GW) on those whose hearts are hardened or not open to it (in agreement with #3).
Understanding that God loves and wants to save everyone, we are ready to consider Scripture concerning election/predestination.
GW stressing God’s role in election may be represented by the following:
5. John 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
6. Rom. 9:11&16, “In order that God’s purpose in election might stand… It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”
GW stressing the role of human agency in election may be represented by the following:
7. Deut. 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
8. Matt. 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
How can these two themes be harmonized and unified? My suggestion is as follows:
Jesus does not say in #5 that his disciples could not have chosen to refuse to follow him, and God does say in #7 that He provides the opportunity to choose life or death, so Jesus saying that he chose his disciples means that God urges souls to choose life.
Although #6 may be understood as indicating human volition has no role in salvation, #8 reveals Jesus lamenting the fact that although God offers salvation to souls, those unwilling to cooperate are not saved.
This interpretation/harmonization affirms BOTH God’s sovereignty and love for humanity as well as His elective will and credit for salvation AND humanity’s God-given volition and accountability for cooperating with God’s will that souls accept salvation via faith in The Elect, who is Christ Jesus.
Having analyzed the OP on the UGE thread, let us now begin our study of election anew by noting that the term “elect” is used in OT Scripture per Young’s Concordance to translate the Hebrew word “bachir” (in Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 & 65:22), and it also is translated as “chosen” (in Psalms 89:3, 105:6 & 43, 106:5 & 23 and Isaiah 43:20 & 65:15). In the NT the Greek word “eklektos” is translated as “elect” (in Matt. 24:22, 24 & 31 and parallel verses in Mark 13:20, 22 & 27, in Luke 18:7, in Rom. 8:33, Col. 3:12, 1Tim. 5:21, 2Tim. 2:10, Tit. 1:1, 1Pet. 1:2, 2:6 & 2 John 1 & 13), and it is translated as “chosen” (in Matt. 20:16, 22:14, Luke 23:35, Romans 16:13, 1 Peter 2:4 & 9 & Rev. 17:14). “Elected” is used in 1Pet. 5:13. A past tense form “eklego” is also used (in Mark 13:20, Luke 6:13, John 6:70 & 15:16 & 19, Acts 1:2 & 24, 1 Cor. 1:27-28, Eph. 1:4 and Jam. 2:5), and the noun form “election” is also found (in Rom. 9:11, 11:5, 7 & 28, 1Thes. 1:4 & 2Pet. 1:10).
The problematic issue is not the term or translation itself and not that it refers to God electing or choosing some souls to be saved, but rather whether God determines that only some sinners will be saved and the majority condemned to hell in accordance with what is known as the Calvinistic TULIP dogma:
T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient moral free will (MFW) to seek salvation. Scriptures cited as support for this view include Mark 7:21-23, Rom. 6:20 & 1Cor. 2:14.
U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.
L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls. This requires rejecting Scriptures supporting God’s love for all humanity (such as John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Acts 2:21 and 1John 2:2) in favor of those saying “many” (Matt. 20:28, Heb. 9:28).
I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved. Scriptures cited include Rom. 9:16, Phil. 2:12-13, and John 6:28-29.
P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved. Scriptures cited include John 10:27-28, Rom. 8:1, 1Cor. 10:13 & Phil. 1:6.
In future posts we will examine this viewpoint.
The problematic issue is not the term or translation itself and not that it refers to God electing or choosing some souls to be saved, but rather whether God determines that only some sinners will be saved and the majority condemned to hell in accordance with what is known as the Calvinistic TULIP dogma:
T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient moral free will (MFW) to seek salvation. Scriptures cited as support for this view include Mark 7:21-23, Rom. 6:20 & 1Cor. 2:14.
U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.
L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls. This requires rejecting Scriptures supporting God’s love for all humanity (such as John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Acts 2:21 and 1John 2:2) in favor of those saying “many” (Matt. 20:28, Heb. 9:28).
I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved. Scriptures cited include Rom. 9:16, Phil. 2:12-13, and John 6:28-29.
P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved. Scriptures cited include John 10:27-28, Rom. 8:1, 1Cor. 10:13 & Phil. 1:6.
In future posts we will examine this viewpoint.
The #2 post on UGE said this:
1. Man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6:44),
2. does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20; John 8:34, 2Tim. 2:26), cannot receive spiritual things (1Cor. 2:14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2:1),
3. is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), is hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law (Rom. 8:7).
4. God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2Thes. 2:13),
5. leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom. 2:4, 2Tim. 2:24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), causes us to be born again (1Pet. 1:3), not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13),
6. draws people to Himself (John 6:44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), and circumcises our heart, all according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
Let us analyze this statement in order to separate the problematic parts from the unobjectionable assertions.
1. It is not disputed that sinful man may be described as deceitful, evil, loving darkness, and unable to be saved without God.
2. Paul’s point in Romans 3:10-12 is stated in v. 9 & 20: All are sinners, and no one will be saved via obeying moral law, the purpose of which is to make souls aware of being sinners. The phrase “no one seeks God” must be interpreted/harmonized with the command of Jesus to “seek and you will find” (Matt. 7:7) and the TOP (in Heb. 11:6) that God “rewards those who earnestly seek him”.
Thus, in order to understand the biblical doctrine of election it is necessary to explain how these Scriptures can be harmonized.
Your explanation?
1. Man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6:44),
2. does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20; John 8:34, 2Tim. 2:26), cannot receive spiritual things (1Cor. 2:14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2:1),
3. is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), is hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law (Rom. 8:7).
4. God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2Thes. 2:13),
5. leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom. 2:4, 2Tim. 2:24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), causes us to be born again (1Pet. 1:3), not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13),
6. draws people to Himself (John 6:44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), and circumcises our heart, all according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
Let us analyze this statement in order to separate the problematic parts from the unobjectionable assertions.
1. It is not disputed that sinful man may be described as deceitful, evil, loving darkness, and unable to be saved without God.
2. Paul’s point in Romans 3:10-12 is stated in v. 9 & 20: All are sinners, and no one will be saved via obeying moral law, the purpose of which is to make souls aware of being sinners. The phrase “no one seeks God” must be interpreted/harmonized with the command of Jesus to “seek and you will find” (Matt. 7:7) and the TOP (in Heb. 11:6) that God “rewards those who earnestly seek him”.
Thus, in order to understand the biblical doctrine of election it is necessary to explain how these Scriptures can be harmonized.
Your explanation?
The #2 post on UGE continued by saying this:
3. “is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), is hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law (Rom. 8:7).”
Let us analyze this statement in order to separate the problematic parts from the unobjectionable assertions.
1. Again, it is not disputed that humans are sinful and cannot save themselves. The problem results from claiming that sinful souls are completely depraved and passive and play no part or need to satisfy no condition in order to be saved.
The passages cited in this regard (Eph. 2:3 & 15, Rom. 8:7) address saved saints in Corinth (1Cor. 1:2) and Rome (Rom. 1:7) who already satisfied the condition of repentance and faith. In Eph. 2:3 “nature” translates the Greek word “sarx”, meaning flesh or fleshly(as in 1Cor. 3:3), and it is used in the sense of worldly or sinful to contrast with the spiritual man who is living in accordance with the teachings of the Spirit (1Cor. 2:13-3:3).
The fact that Paul reproved the Corinthians for having a carnal attitude and urged them to imitate his way of life assumes their ability to reform and cease having hostility or enmity (Eph. 2:15) toward God/GW. The same dynamic is evident in Rom. 8:1-13, in which Paul commanded the Romans to live in accordance with the Spirit rather than the sinful nature. Perhaps the most succinct verse implying the cooperation of the believer’s will with the HS in this passage is Rom. 7:12, “Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires”.
Thus, those who want Scriptural support for the T in TULIP need to find other references.
3. “is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), is hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law (Rom. 8:7).”
Let us analyze this statement in order to separate the problematic parts from the unobjectionable assertions.
1. Again, it is not disputed that humans are sinful and cannot save themselves. The problem results from claiming that sinful souls are completely depraved and passive and play no part or need to satisfy no condition in order to be saved.
The passages cited in this regard (Eph. 2:3 & 15, Rom. 8:7) address saved saints in Corinth (1Cor. 1:2) and Rome (Rom. 1:7) who already satisfied the condition of repentance and faith. In Eph. 2:3 “nature” translates the Greek word “sarx”, meaning flesh or fleshly(as in 1Cor. 3:3), and it is used in the sense of worldly or sinful to contrast with the spiritual man who is living in accordance with the teachings of the Spirit (1Cor. 2:13-3:3).
The fact that Paul reproved the Corinthians for having a carnal attitude and urged them to imitate his way of life assumes their ability to reform and cease having hostility or enmity (Eph. 2:15) toward God/GW. The same dynamic is evident in Rom. 8:1-13, in which Paul commanded the Romans to live in accordance with the Spirit rather than the sinful nature. Perhaps the most succinct verse implying the cooperation of the believer’s will with the HS in this passage is Rom. 7:12, “Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires”.
Thus, those who want Scriptural support for the T in TULIP need to find other references.
Next, the #2 post on UGE said:
4. “God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2Thes. 2:13),”
Again, it is not disputed that God appoints, chooses, and calls sinners to believe, be holy, and be saved, but rather the problematic part is whether “predestined” means that He predetermines some to be saved and the rest to be damned, so let us examine the Scriptures that were cited.
4. Acts 13:48 says that the Gentiles “who were appointed for eternal life believed”, but it does not say that God made some believe and prevented faith in others. Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose those who are in Jesus “to be holy and blameless in his sight”, the context of which seems to be Romans 3:20-26, which says in part “No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law… The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe—there is no difference”, meaning that God does not show favoritism when he judges per Romans 2:5-11.
Thus, “predestined” in Ephesians 1:5 must refer to God’s “purpose” or plan of salvation in 2 Timothy 1:9, which is to “choose” or save all who choose to repent of having an unrepentant, stubborn or callous heart, as in Romans 2:4-5 and Acts 28:26-27. These Scriptures clearly indicate that salvation is conditional upon sinners choosing to repent of being self-seeking or I-dolatrous and instead seeking God’s “glory, honor and immortality” (Romans 2:7-8, cf. Matthew 7:7, Titus 2:11, Ezek. 33:11). The condition is called “faith”, and the clarification per “pearls” in Scripture (1 Timothy 2:3-4 1 John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44 & 48, Gal. 5:6 & 14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2) is that God loves all humanity and enables every accountable soul (no matter how depraved) to seek and find salvation—or not (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37), which is why it is just for those who ignore His grace to reap the result in hell.
Thus, in TULIP the T is Totally wrong, and the U is Unscriptural.
4. “God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), calls according to His purpose (2Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2Thes. 2:13),”
Again, it is not disputed that God appoints, chooses, and calls sinners to believe, be holy, and be saved, but rather the problematic part is whether “predestined” means that He predetermines some to be saved and the rest to be damned, so let us examine the Scriptures that were cited.
4. Acts 13:48 says that the Gentiles “who were appointed for eternal life believed”, but it does not say that God made some believe and prevented faith in others. Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose those who are in Jesus “to be holy and blameless in his sight”, the context of which seems to be Romans 3:20-26, which says in part “No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law… The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe—there is no difference”, meaning that God does not show favoritism when he judges per Romans 2:5-11.
Thus, “predestined” in Ephesians 1:5 must refer to God’s “purpose” or plan of salvation in 2 Timothy 1:9, which is to “choose” or save all who choose to repent of having an unrepentant, stubborn or callous heart, as in Romans 2:4-5 and Acts 28:26-27. These Scriptures clearly indicate that salvation is conditional upon sinners choosing to repent of being self-seeking or I-dolatrous and instead seeking God’s “glory, honor and immortality” (Romans 2:7-8, cf. Matthew 7:7, Titus 2:11, Ezek. 33:11). The condition is called “faith”, and the clarification per “pearls” in Scripture (1 Timothy 2:3-4 1 John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44 & 48, Gal. 5:6 & 14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2) is that God loves all humanity and enables every accountable soul (no matter how depraved) to seek and find salvation—or not (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37), which is why it is just for those who ignore His grace to reap the result in hell.
Thus, in TULIP the T is Totally wrong, and the U is Unscriptural.
Before proceeding with the analsis of the TULIP doctrine, perhaps the opposing viewpoint should be introduced, which may be termed Moral Free Will (MFW) as follows:
M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral one: seek right/truth/love, and His moral option presumes human volition even for sinners, which makes them morally accountable.
F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are justly condemned.
W – Will refers to faith or seeking salvation—or not, and accepting God’s grace is not meritorious.
One of the clearest statements of the Moral option in Scripture is Deut. 30:19b, “I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” Jesus equated moral right with spiritual truth and acceptance of him as Messiah (John 8:31 & 40-47), and Paul taught that the purpose of moral law and conscience is to lead sinners to faith in the Gospel of Christ (Romans 2:14-15, 3:20, Gal. 3:19 & 24).
Sinners are Free to receive God’s grace or salvation by means of volition or faith, which is the condition but not the cause of salvation. The reason this truth is a stumbling-block for TULIPists is because they have been brain-washed to believe that faith is a meritorious work. Although Jesus said in John 6:29 that “the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent”, there is no reason to think Jesus viewed such faith as meritorious instead of merely indicating that a soul’s faith willingly cooperates with the will of God.
Although sinful souls are described as depraved and unable to save themselves, this does not mean they have no Will and are mere animals who live by instinct or robots who act as programmed and are thus not accountable for moral behavior. The clearest NT Scripture supporting this view is Matthew 23:37, in which Jesus laments that Jerusalem was “not willing” to be saved.
M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral one: seek right/truth/love, and His moral option presumes human volition even for sinners, which makes them morally accountable.
F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are justly condemned.
W – Will refers to faith or seeking salvation—or not, and accepting God’s grace is not meritorious.
One of the clearest statements of the Moral option in Scripture is Deut. 30:19b, “I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” Jesus equated moral right with spiritual truth and acceptance of him as Messiah (John 8:31 & 40-47), and Paul taught that the purpose of moral law and conscience is to lead sinners to faith in the Gospel of Christ (Romans 2:14-15, 3:20, Gal. 3:19 & 24).
Sinners are Free to receive God’s grace or salvation by means of volition or faith, which is the condition but not the cause of salvation. The reason this truth is a stumbling-block for TULIPists is because they have been brain-washed to believe that faith is a meritorious work. Although Jesus said in John 6:29 that “the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent”, there is no reason to think Jesus viewed such faith as meritorious instead of merely indicating that a soul’s faith willingly cooperates with the will of God.
Although sinful souls are described as depraved and unable to save themselves, this does not mean they have no Will and are mere animals who live by instinct or robots who act as programmed and are thus not accountable for moral behavior. The clearest NT Scripture supporting this view is Matthew 23:37, in which Jesus laments that Jerusalem was “not willing” to be saved.
Now that the MFWist position has been introduced, let us continue analyzing the #2 post on the UGE thread:
5. “leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom. 2:4, 2Tim. 2:24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), causes us to be born again (1Pet. 1:3), not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6:44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65)”
Once more it must be noted that it is not disputed that God initiates salvation by giving souls MFW or enabling sinners to repent and believe the Gospel—or not. The point of disagreement is whether God only grants some souls this opportunity while withholding it from others, which would be showing favoritism. Does Scripture teach that God causes the elect to be born again against their will?
Romans 2:4-11 certainly teaches that souls are free resist divine enabling (John 6:65) and show contempt for God’s kindness and that God does NOT show favoritism. 2Tim. 2:25-26 says that those who teach GW should hope everyone will be granted repentance, learn the truth, come to their senses and escape captivity by the devil, which reiterates 1 Tim. 2:3-4. John 6:44 & 12:32 indicate that God desires to draw all humanity to Christ.
Phil. 1:27-29 encourages saints to stand firm or persevere in saving faith despite being granted suffering for Christ, so that they will not be destroyed like those who oppose them, but it does not say God causes unbelief. John 6:28-29 and 1:12-13 indicate that souls cooperate with God’s work of granting belief by receiving him, and 1Pet. 1:3 merely praises God for giving believers new birth.
We see that God desires to grant everyone the opportunity to believe and receive salvation, and so Christ died in order that “everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life” (John 6:40, cf. 6:33-37 & 51-57, 3:16, 8:12, 12:32).
Thus, the L in TULIP is a Lie.
5. “leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom. 2:4, 2Tim. 2:24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), causes us to be born again (1Pet. 1:3), not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6:44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6:65)”
Once more it must be noted that it is not disputed that God initiates salvation by giving souls MFW or enabling sinners to repent and believe the Gospel—or not. The point of disagreement is whether God only grants some souls this opportunity while withholding it from others, which would be showing favoritism. Does Scripture teach that God causes the elect to be born again against their will?
Romans 2:4-11 certainly teaches that souls are free resist divine enabling (John 6:65) and show contempt for God’s kindness and that God does NOT show favoritism. 2Tim. 2:25-26 says that those who teach GW should hope everyone will be granted repentance, learn the truth, come to their senses and escape captivity by the devil, which reiterates 1 Tim. 2:3-4. John 6:44 & 12:32 indicate that God desires to draw all humanity to Christ.
Phil. 1:27-29 encourages saints to stand firm or persevere in saving faith despite being granted suffering for Christ, so that they will not be destroyed like those who oppose them, but it does not say God causes unbelief. John 6:28-29 and 1:12-13 indicate that souls cooperate with God’s work of granting belief by receiving him, and 1Pet. 1:3 merely praises God for giving believers new birth.
We see that God desires to grant everyone the opportunity to believe and receive salvation, and so Christ died in order that “everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life” (John 6:40, cf. 6:33-37 & 51-57, 3:16, 8:12, 12:32).
Thus, the L in TULIP is a Lie.
Now we come to the last part of the #2 post on the UGE thread:
6. “predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), and circumcises our heart, all according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11)”.
In Rom. 2:29 Paul taught that salvific circumcision is “of the heart, by the Spirit”, and in Rom. 3:21-26 Paul said that “righteousness from God [spiritual circumcision] comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” and that God offered Christ as a “sacrifice of atonement” to demonstrate his justice as the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. In Eph. 1:3-13 Paul employs the phrase “in Christ” or equivalents ten times to explain that this plan of salvation (POS) which God “purposed in Christ” was predestined from “before creation of the world”.
Rom. 8:28-33 is addressed to those who responded to God’s POS/grace that is available to all sinners per the following passages in Romans:
Rom. 1:16, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes… in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed that is by faith.”
Rom. 1:20b-22, “Men [morally accountable souls] are without excuse, for although they knew God… their foolish hearts were darkened… they became fools.”
Rom. 2:1-11, “You have no excuse… you are condemning yourself… because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart… you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day… God’s righteous judgment will be revealed… God does not show favoritism.”
Rom. 3:20b-26, “Through the law we become conscious of sin, but… righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe… for all have sinned… and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement… so as to be just and the one who who justifies the man who has faith in Jesus.”
Rom. 4:5-25, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness… Abraham is the father of all who believe and… walk in the footsteps of faith… because the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring… Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations… us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”
Rom. 5:8-19, “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us… just as death came to all men, because all sinned… how much more did God’s grace… overflow to the many… those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace… just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”
Rom. 6:4b-16, “We too may life a new life, if we have been united with Christ in his death… because anyone who has died has been freed from sin… Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body… For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace… you are slaves to the one you obey… but thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free.”
Rom. 7:6 & 21-25, “We have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit… but when I want to do good, evil is right there with me… at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind… Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Rom. 8:1 & 24-26, “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus… for in this hope we were saved… the Spirit helps us in our weakness.”
And so we arrive at Rom. 8:28-33 understanding the plan that God predestined was to save all who did not stubbornly resist His call but rather received His grace by believing in His Messiah's atonement. Again, God’s call is to all, but it is not irresistible.
Thus the I in TULIP Ignores Scripture.
6. “predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), and circumcises our heart, all according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11)”.
In Rom. 2:29 Paul taught that salvific circumcision is “of the heart, by the Spirit”, and in Rom. 3:21-26 Paul said that “righteousness from God [spiritual circumcision] comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” and that God offered Christ as a “sacrifice of atonement” to demonstrate his justice as the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. In Eph. 1:3-13 Paul employs the phrase “in Christ” or equivalents ten times to explain that this plan of salvation (POS) which God “purposed in Christ” was predestined from “before creation of the world”.
Rom. 8:28-33 is addressed to those who responded to God’s POS/grace that is available to all sinners per the following passages in Romans:
Rom. 1:16, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes… in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed that is by faith.”
Rom. 1:20b-22, “Men [morally accountable souls] are without excuse, for although they knew God… their foolish hearts were darkened… they became fools.”
Rom. 2:1-11, “You have no excuse… you are condemning yourself… because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart… you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day… God’s righteous judgment will be revealed… God does not show favoritism.”
Rom. 3:20b-26, “Through the law we become conscious of sin, but… righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe… for all have sinned… and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement… so as to be just and the one who who justifies the man who has faith in Jesus.”
Rom. 4:5-25, “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness… Abraham is the father of all who believe and… walk in the footsteps of faith… because the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring… Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations… us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”
Rom. 5:8-19, “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us… just as death came to all men, because all sinned… how much more did God’s grace… overflow to the many… those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace… just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”
Rom. 6:4b-16, “We too may life a new life, if we have been united with Christ in his death… because anyone who has died has been freed from sin… Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body… For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace… you are slaves to the one you obey… but thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free.”
Rom. 7:6 & 21-25, “We have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit… but when I want to do good, evil is right there with me… at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind… Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Rom. 8:1 & 24-26, “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus… for in this hope we were saved… the Spirit helps us in our weakness.”
And so we arrive at Rom. 8:28-33 understanding the plan that God predestined was to save all who did not stubbornly resist His call but rather received His grace by believing in His Messiah's atonement. Again, God’s call is to all, but it is not irresistible.
Thus the I in TULIP Ignores Scripture.
-
1
- Show all