Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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Because as you said in post #369, "Good idea. Election is impossible to truly discuss on the other thread you identify."
Do you have any comments about how I introduced this topic and have developed it so far?
I was intending to complete my initial line of inquiry with another post discussing the P in TULIP,
but I would like to know where you think it would be good to go by way of a systematic or logical direction after that--
perhaps based on further material from the UGE thread?
Do you have any comments about how I introduced this topic and have developed it so far?
I was intending to complete my initial line of inquiry with another post discussing the P in TULIP,
but I would like to know where you think it would be good to go by way of a systematic or logical direction after that--
perhaps based on further material from the UGE thread?
Now we might return to the analysis of the concluding part of the OP in the UGE thread:
6a. “Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)”
Yes, and reading Romans from the beginning reveals that God calls/offers grace or mercy to all.
6b. “God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!”
Yes, and everyone is treated justly, because God does not show favoritism.
6c. “God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9) God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent … the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.”
Yes, God’s intent is for all to be saved, which is possible because He offers grace to all and enables all to believe GW/the Gospel—or not (because of God's permissive will).
6d. “Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).”
Yes, true. Saints do not achieve perfection during this earthly experience.
6e. “The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.”
No, this statement does not affirm Scripture teaching that all may be saved,
but some are stubborn or have callous hearts that ignore God’s grace/GW, which grieves God.
6f. “Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.”
No, this statement ignores Scripture teaching that faith is the condition for security from beginning to end, which brings us to consider the end of TULIP, the P for perseverance, which is the easiest to refute because there are so many Scriptures supporting the possibility of apostasy.
The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (Others include Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.
The P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy.
6a. “Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)”
Yes, and reading Romans from the beginning reveals that God calls/offers grace or mercy to all.
6b. “God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!”
Yes, and everyone is treated justly, because God does not show favoritism.
6c. “God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9) God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent … the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.”
Yes, God’s intent is for all to be saved, which is possible because He offers grace to all and enables all to believe GW/the Gospel—or not (because of God's permissive will).
6d. “Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).”
Yes, true. Saints do not achieve perfection during this earthly experience.
6e. “The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.”
No, this statement does not affirm Scripture teaching that all may be saved,
but some are stubborn or have callous hearts that ignore God’s grace/GW, which grieves God.
6f. “Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.”
No, this statement ignores Scripture teaching that faith is the condition for security from beginning to end, which brings us to consider the end of TULIP, the P for perseverance, which is the easiest to refute because there are so many Scriptures supporting the possibility of apostasy.
The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (Others include Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.
The P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy.
Seeing no suggestions, let us continue this study by examining post #3 on the UGE thread,
which is simply a description of sinful souls as being wicked, mockers, rebellious, hating, etc.,
which is not disputed, so let us move on to consider relevant parts in other posts.
Post #8 says “God has called us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not. Any scriptures on that you might have” to which no reply was found,
so moving on again we come to #15, which says, “I believe God is righteous, fair and complete… to say God does not or has not called everyone to choose to believe God or not, makes God unfair and unrighteous”, which is a vote for the MFWist view.
The next post says “God is sovereign, so His will always comes to pass.”, which is a vote for the TULIP position and probably unintentionally implies that God is responsible for causing evil.
In post #18 the OP asks, “how about commenting on the election Scriptures?”, apparently meaning the ones in the OP, which we have done, but unfortunately the OP did not comment on Scriptures supporting the MFW view, so no harmonizing is done, but post #21 replies with Scriptures and comments supporting MFW:
Post #35 cites Scriptures purported to support TULIP:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Would anyone want to explore whether these verses do indeed support TULIP,
and if any do so, then how those may be harmonized with Scriptures supporting MFW?
which is simply a description of sinful souls as being wicked, mockers, rebellious, hating, etc.,
which is not disputed, so let us move on to consider relevant parts in other posts.
Post #8 says “God has called us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not. Any scriptures on that you might have” to which no reply was found,
so moving on again we come to #15, which says, “I believe God is righteous, fair and complete… to say God does not or has not called everyone to choose to believe God or not, makes God unfair and unrighteous”, which is a vote for the MFWist view.
The next post says “God is sovereign, so His will always comes to pass.”, which is a vote for the TULIP position and probably unintentionally implies that God is responsible for causing evil.
In post #18 the OP asks, “how about commenting on the election Scriptures?”, apparently meaning the ones in the OP, which we have done, but unfortunately the OP did not comment on Scriptures supporting the MFW view, so no harmonizing is done, but post #21 replies with Scriptures and comments supporting MFW:
- Ephesians 1:3–6, God's blessings are linked to the Son in several ways, including being chosen "in him" and adopted "through Jesus Christ".
- John 3:36, God says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life".
- 1 John 5:10, God says, "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself".
- Ephesians 1:13, 2:8-9, God saved people individually when they believed the gospel message.
Post #35 cites Scriptures purported to support TULIP:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Would anyone want to explore whether these verses do indeed support TULIP,
and if any do so, then how those may be harmonized with Scriptures supporting MFW?
Seeing no takers, I will undertake the analysis of #35.
The first step in applying a systematic hermeneutic is to eliminate Scripture that is irrelevant, and the second step will be to harmonize any that support TULIP with those supporting MFW.
Phl 1:29 can be eliminated, because it is not disputed that God initiates grace by offering souls the opportunity to be saved, but only whether such provision is resistible, and this verse does not say that it is or isn’t. Jhn 6:29 can be eliminated for essentially the same reason, because it is not disputed that God prepares all good works, but only whether souls are free to disobey or not (cf. Eph. 2:8-10).
Similarly, Gal 5:22 does not say folks are forced to bear the fruit (work) of the Spirit including faith,
and Gal 2:16 does not say folks are forced to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Now let us see how the remaining verses that seem to support TULIP jibe with verses supporting MFW,
which post #35 should have done were it objective and systematic.
In Act 13:48 the problematic part is whether being “ordained to eternal life believed” means being forced to believe or that believing satisfies the condition for being ordained. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”, indicates that the correct interpretation and harmonization is the latter.
Jhn 10:26-27 should be read in connection with the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, which indicates that the separation or distinction is due to souls choosing whether to obey God’s will or not. Those who chose to obey His voice and follow Jesus satisfy GRFS, and those who chose to ignore GW and not believe in Jesus are not his sheep. This understanding is how the passages may be harmonized.
At first glance 1Pe 1:4-5 might sound like souls are kept or forced to be saved “by the power of God”, but closer inspection reveals that “through faith” indicates the condition of cooperation with God, which understanding harmonizes with Scripture beginning with Rom. 3:22.
1Pe 1:20-21 should be read in connection with 2Pet. 3:9, so that whatever is meant by “by him”, it does not mean being forced to repent.
Finally, 2Th 2:13 seems to refer to sanctification of the Spirit as the condition for having belief of the truth, but other statements of Paul indicate that faith is the condition for being spiritually circumcised, as in Rom. 4:3 & 5:1-5.
Hopefully, everyone is learning how to harmonize Scripture instead of ignoring the part that does not support the interpretation one has been taught to believe. In my case, my Baptist upbringing taught OSAS, but learning Scripture taught me that the P (in TULIP) also depended on the condition of cooperating faith, so that GRFS is faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
The first step in applying a systematic hermeneutic is to eliminate Scripture that is irrelevant, and the second step will be to harmonize any that support TULIP with those supporting MFW.
Phl 1:29 can be eliminated, because it is not disputed that God initiates grace by offering souls the opportunity to be saved, but only whether such provision is resistible, and this verse does not say that it is or isn’t. Jhn 6:29 can be eliminated for essentially the same reason, because it is not disputed that God prepares all good works, but only whether souls are free to disobey or not (cf. Eph. 2:8-10).
Similarly, Gal 5:22 does not say folks are forced to bear the fruit (work) of the Spirit including faith,
and Gal 2:16 does not say folks are forced to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Now let us see how the remaining verses that seem to support TULIP jibe with verses supporting MFW,
which post #35 should have done were it objective and systematic.
In Act 13:48 the problematic part is whether being “ordained to eternal life believed” means being forced to believe or that believing satisfies the condition for being ordained. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”, indicates that the correct interpretation and harmonization is the latter.
Jhn 10:26-27 should be read in connection with the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, which indicates that the separation or distinction is due to souls choosing whether to obey God’s will or not. Those who chose to obey His voice and follow Jesus satisfy GRFS, and those who chose to ignore GW and not believe in Jesus are not his sheep. This understanding is how the passages may be harmonized.
At first glance 1Pe 1:4-5 might sound like souls are kept or forced to be saved “by the power of God”, but closer inspection reveals that “through faith” indicates the condition of cooperation with God, which understanding harmonizes with Scripture beginning with Rom. 3:22.
1Pe 1:20-21 should be read in connection with 2Pet. 3:9, so that whatever is meant by “by him”, it does not mean being forced to repent.
Finally, 2Th 2:13 seems to refer to sanctification of the Spirit as the condition for having belief of the truth, but other statements of Paul indicate that faith is the condition for being spiritually circumcised, as in Rom. 4:3 & 5:1-5.
Hopefully, everyone is learning how to harmonize Scripture instead of ignoring the part that does not support the interpretation one has been taught to believe. In my case, my Baptist upbringing taught OSAS, but learning Scripture taught me that the P (in TULIP) also depended on the condition of cooperating faith, so that GRFS is faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
Skipping the ping-pong posts trying to score points, the next meaningful post attempting to move the ball forward is #59:
Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap. R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.
However the Holy Ghost says: Ask. Seek. Knock. Come. Take. Those are they that obtain the truth of God via His Holy Spirit. Those who CHOOSE to refuse.....don't.
Luk 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This is one of the most pertinent passages in all the OT on this topic. Very few nowadays understand it, but it hold true nevertheless:
2Ki 6:5, But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6, And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7, Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand,and took it.
[Deu 30:10 KJV] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
[Deu 30:11 KJV] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.
[Deu 30:12 KJV] It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[Deu 30:13 KJV] Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[Deu 30:14 KJV] But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
[Deu 30:15 KJV] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
[Deu 30:16 KJV] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
[Deu 30:19 KJV] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Applying the systematic hermeneutic method to this pro-MFW post as was done to the previous pro-TULIP post, let us first see whether any Scripture passages should be eliminated as irrelevant for the correct understanding of the doctrine of election; then seek to harmonize any passages that support MFW with those supporting TULIP.
Does anyone want to do this?
Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap. R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.
However the Holy Ghost says: Ask. Seek. Knock. Come. Take. Those are they that obtain the truth of God via His Holy Spirit. Those who CHOOSE to refuse.....don't.
Luk 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This is one of the most pertinent passages in all the OT on this topic. Very few nowadays understand it, but it hold true nevertheless:
2Ki 6:5, But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6, And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7, Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand,and took it.
[Deu 30:10 KJV] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
[Deu 30:11 KJV] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.
[Deu 30:12 KJV] It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[Deu 30:13 KJV] Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[Deu 30:14 KJV] But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
[Deu 30:15 KJV] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
[Deu 30:16 KJV] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
[Deu 30:19 KJV] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Applying the systematic hermeneutic method to this pro-MFW post as was done to the previous pro-TULIP post, let us first see whether any Scripture passages should be eliminated as irrelevant for the correct understanding of the doctrine of election; then seek to harmonize any passages that support MFW with those supporting TULIP.
Does anyone want to do this?
Agree and Heb11 in history begins with Abel and proceeds from there throughout history through the times of the Prophets. And when we come to the Gospels, we see men and women living according to righteousness and awaiting Messiah. Offhand I don't see a time in biblical history where God did not have someone of faith on the earth.
I'm not proofing all of your listed Scriptures but in general I agree with your statements.
Going back to the claim in UGE #2 made re: Rom3:9-18 I'd bring up your favorite harmonizing concept and compare what we've said in #1 to how this poster and others on the UGE thread interpret those verses.
Rom3:9-18 in part is based upon Ps14 where part of the Psalm speaks of what Paul references, but the remainder of the Psalm speaks from the perspective of the Lord's people. IOW just as there have been people of faith throughout history as discussed re: #1, Paul is drawing from a Psalm that includes this same truth. Paul's main point is very clearly made in Rom3, all Jews and Gentiles are under sin, yet the harmonizing per Ps14, Heb11, and elsewhere in Rom and the Bible is that there have been people of faith since at least Abel. This in part is why the harmonizing re: things like seeking God - only one part of such addressed by Paul in Rom3 - are important.
Typically, these referenced OT Scriptures are meant to be read for the whole story.
I'm not proofing all of your listed Scriptures but in general I agree with your statements.
Going back to the claim in UGE #2 made re: Rom3:9-18 I'd bring up your favorite harmonizing concept and compare what we've said in #1 to how this poster and others on the UGE thread interpret those verses.
Rom3:9-18 in part is based upon Ps14 where part of the Psalm speaks of what Paul references, but the remainder of the Psalm speaks from the perspective of the Lord's people. IOW just as there have been people of faith throughout history as discussed re: #1, Paul is drawing from a Psalm that includes this same truth. Paul's main point is very clearly made in Rom3, all Jews and Gentiles are under sin, yet the harmonizing per Ps14, Heb11, and elsewhere in Rom and the Bible is that there have been people of faith since at least Abel. This in part is why the harmonizing re: things like seeking God - only one part of such addressed by Paul in Rom3 - are important.
Typically, these referenced OT Scriptures are meant to be read for the whole story.
I appreciate your comments and would be delighted if you have time and inclination to reply to #447,
which may be tricky, because it will require citing pro-TULIP Scripture and then harmonizing it with pro-MFW passages,
probably the reverse of what you have been doing on the UGW thread, but because there seem to be no open-minded
TULIPists around to recruit, we must play their part as objectively as we can.
(I think the Deut. 30 verses can be condensed.)
which may be tricky, because it will require citing pro-TULIP Scripture and then harmonizing it with pro-MFW passages,
probably the reverse of what you have been doing on the UGW thread, but because there seem to be no open-minded
TULIPists around to recruit, we must play their part as objectively as we can.
(I think the Deut. 30 verses can be condensed.)
Okay, as I recommended in the the analysis of #35, the first step in applying a systematic hermeneutic is to eliminate Scripture that is irrelevant, so let us do that:
1. “Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap. R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.”
This statement does not cite Scripture and thus is irrelevant.
2. “However the Holy Ghost says: Ask. Seek. Knock. Come. Take. Those are they that obtain the truth of God via His Holy Spirit. Those who CHOOSE to refuse.....don't.”… Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:”
This statement implies that all sinners are able/enabled by God to ask “What must I do to be saved” (in terms of Acts 16:30), which supports the MFW view, so it is relevant and we will need to cite a Scripture that states the opposite.
3. “Luk 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
This statement/Scripture seems to be akin to Matt. 7:7, so it is also relevant.
4. “Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”
This Scripture appears to be what Jesus had in mind when he said Matt. 7:7, so it is relevant.
5. “Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
We can see how this verse is in the same vein as Matt. 7:7 and thus is relevant.
6. “This is one of the most pertinent passages in all the OT on this topic. Very few nowadays understand it, but it hold true nevertheless:
2Ki 6:5, But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6, And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7, Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand,and took it.”
I fail to see how this passage is pertinent or applies to the doctrine of election, so unless you do, I suggest that it start the irrelevant pile.
7. “[Deu 30:10-16 KJV] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11, For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. 12, It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13, Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14, But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15, See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16, In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.”
This passage appears to be preliminary to the pertinent part, which is the next verse, so I suggest putting it in the irrelevant pile.
8. “[Deu 30:19 KJV] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
This verse is the most clear support of MFW in the OT, so it is definetely relevant for further consideration.
Okay, I have separated the statements into two piles. Now the task is for us to find Scripture that at first reading might seem to oppose those in the relevant pile and then harmonize them if possible.
Over to you…
1. “Right. And hyper-Calvinism is junk theology fit for the rubbish heap. R.C. Sproul Jr. is CLEARLY quoted as saying the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, and GOD CREATED EVIL. An outrageous heresy.”
This statement does not cite Scripture and thus is irrelevant.
2. “However the Holy Ghost says: Ask. Seek. Knock. Come. Take. Those are they that obtain the truth of God via His Holy Spirit. Those who CHOOSE to refuse.....don't.”… Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:”
This statement implies that all sinners are able/enabled by God to ask “What must I do to be saved” (in terms of Acts 16:30), which supports the MFW view, so it is relevant and we will need to cite a Scripture that states the opposite.
3. “Luk 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
This statement/Scripture seems to be akin to Matt. 7:7, so it is also relevant.
4. “Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”
This Scripture appears to be what Jesus had in mind when he said Matt. 7:7, so it is relevant.
5. “Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
We can see how this verse is in the same vein as Matt. 7:7 and thus is relevant.
6. “This is one of the most pertinent passages in all the OT on this topic. Very few nowadays understand it, but it hold true nevertheless:
2Ki 6:5, But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6, And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7, Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand,and took it.”
I fail to see how this passage is pertinent or applies to the doctrine of election, so unless you do, I suggest that it start the irrelevant pile.
7. “[Deu 30:10-16 KJV] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11, For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. 12, It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13, Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14, But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15, See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16, In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.”
This passage appears to be preliminary to the pertinent part, which is the next verse, so I suggest putting it in the irrelevant pile.
8. “[Deu 30:19 KJV] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
This verse is the most clear support of MFW in the OT, so it is definetely relevant for further consideration.
Okay, I have separated the statements into two piles. Now the task is for us to find Scripture that at first reading might seem to oppose those in the relevant pile and then harmonize them if possible.
Over to you…
Election is a big topic with its 5-point TULIP. UGE35 looks like it's ultimately based in a comment by rogerg that "Belief is not a matter of choice; it is a gift, one not bestowed upon everyone." that you and a few others were following up on.
You seem to be just dealing with the responder's Matt7:7 verse and starting there in regard to the ask, seek, knock ability of man according to MFW vs. the alternative, correct?
I don't know how productive I will be in regard to providing input from the TULIP perspective. I'm more geared towards responding to TULIP than having ingested its arguments and being predisposed to them.
So, I'm going to first take your beginning and respond to it.
I suppose I'd take the much-used Rom3:11 "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." to play the TULIP card, but I'm not sure why because it's obviously not being interpreted correctly. Maybe you can do much better.
Although your Acts16:30 at first seemed like a little bit of a leap, it's interesting how you took the "ask' and actually found an "ask" verse.
I'd agree with your question about what was meant re: these verses, but I do see the command to take it up and the willing response of reaching out and doing so, which at minimum is within the MFW perspective and starkly opposed to the TULIP corpse analogy. It would be interesting to know what @cv5 meant here.
Per my bold highlights I think I can see why all these were included. They depict the abilities of sinful men at least to some imperfect degree to listen, to obey, to turn, to reason and ask, to be informed that God and His word are near and can be internalized and be done, etc...
Although these are God's people, they were clearly still sinners under Law, but they had [spiritual] abilities that again the corpse analogy denies.
In many of these matters, I simply don't automatically identify much to provide from the reformed perspective to harmonize their thinking. I started to list all the "election" verses but stopped for various reasons. I was just about at the point where some verses most definitely need to be considered re: election from the Reformed perspective.
I'm not sure what I can add to your work. As can be seen here, you and I would likely have to wrestle a bit but I'm sure we're at least in the same arena and looking for the same mutual respect in any disagreements.
As you can clearly note and have with your ping-pone statements, I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.
You seem to be just dealing with the responder's Matt7:7 verse and starting there in regard to the ask, seek, knock ability of man according to MFW vs. the alternative, correct?
I don't know how productive I will be in regard to providing input from the TULIP perspective. I'm more geared towards responding to TULIP than having ingested its arguments and being predisposed to them.
So, I'm going to first take your beginning and respond to it.
I suppose I'd take the much-used Rom3:11 "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." to play the TULIP card, but I'm not sure why because it's obviously not being interpreted correctly. Maybe you can do much better.
Although your Acts16:30 at first seemed like a little bit of a leap, it's interesting how you took the "ask' and actually found an "ask" verse.
I'd agree with your question about what was meant re: these verses, but I do see the command to take it up and the willing response of reaching out and doing so, which at minimum is within the MFW perspective and starkly opposed to the TULIP corpse analogy. It would be interesting to know what @cv5 meant here.
Per my bold highlights I think I can see why all these were included. They depict the abilities of sinful men at least to some imperfect degree to listen, to obey, to turn, to reason and ask, to be informed that God and His word are near and can be internalized and be done, etc...
Although these are God's people, they were clearly still sinners under Law, but they had [spiritual] abilities that again the corpse analogy denies.
In many of these matters, I simply don't automatically identify much to provide from the reformed perspective to harmonize their thinking. I started to list all the "election" verses but stopped for various reasons. I was just about at the point where some verses most definitely need to be considered re: election from the Reformed perspective.
I'm not sure what I can add to your work. As can be seen here, you and I would likely have to wrestle a bit but I'm sure we're at least in the same arena and looking for the same mutual respect in any disagreements.
As you can clearly note and have with your ping-pone statements, I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.
I understand what you mean about being geared toward refuting TULIP, but your mention of Rom. 3:11 as the TULIP rejoinder to #2/Matt. 7:7 is perfect. Perhaps #3&4 can be lumped with #2. Not sure about #5. #6 is rather irrelevant, and #7 can be lumped with #8. So, really, we only have one more TULIP Scripture to match with #8.
I am loaded for bear regarding the P, when we focus on that point, since that has been my focus from having been raised to believe it.
I am loaded for bear regarding the P, when we focus on that point, since that has been my focus from having been raised to believe it.
I knew what you meant.
Re "I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.": I wonder what the TULIPists
on the UGE thread will do after we complete a systematic study of election and can refer them to post # such and such
on this thread for a complete/harmonized answer instead of playing ping-pong.
Re "I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.": I wonder what the TULIPists
on the UGE thread will do after we complete a systematic study of election and can refer them to post # such and such
on this thread for a complete/harmonized answer instead of playing ping-pong.
I searched briefly on the UGE thread for a Scripture TULIPists might cite to counter #8/Deut. 30:19 but couldn't find one.
Would you want to simply ask folks on that thread what Scripture they would cite?
After dealing with #59 my plan was to scan through more posts on UGE to find another substantive one to analyze.
Much of UGE is irrelevant or repetitive, so I doubt there will be an overwhelming amount of pro-TULIP Scripture to
harmonize, but this will be my attempt--although it may take awhile to scan all 700 pages!
Can you think of a better plan for proceeding with this study?
Would you want to simply ask folks on that thread what Scripture they would cite?
After dealing with #59 my plan was to scan through more posts on UGE to find another substantive one to analyze.
Much of UGE is irrelevant or repetitive, so I doubt there will be an overwhelming amount of pro-TULIP Scripture to
harmonize, but this will be my attempt--although it may take awhile to scan all 700 pages!
Can you think of a better plan for proceeding with this study?
I knew what you meant.
Re "I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.": I wonder what the TULIPists
on the UGE thread will do after we complete a systematic study of election and can refer them to post # such and such
on this thread for a complete/harmonized answer instead of playing ping-pong.
Re "I've lost any interest in respectful discussion with at least one poster on the UGE thread.": I wonder what the TULIPists
on the UGE thread will do after we complete a systematic study of election and can refer them to post # such and such
on this thread for a complete/harmonized answer instead of playing ping-pong.
Regarding Deut. 30:19b, “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”, I found two passages might be cited by TULIPists:
John 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Rom. 9:11&16, “In order that God’s purpose in election might stand… It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”
Now, how to harmonize?
Part of the issue and the work here is that some of these verses simply need to be dealt with in context to show that they are not something that needs to be harmonized. For example, John15:16 is Jesus choosing Apostles from those already believing. It may seem to some like this means He chooses some to believe and some to not believe, but it's contextually illegitimate. This is why I started here with this specific work on actual "election" verses. And that list is just the verbs in only the NC and not the nouns or adjectives which list is longer.
If we really get down to it, I'm not even sure Dt30 is a legitimate discussion. Maybe it is. God is speaking to men He's revealed Himself to and rescued from slavery. He's given them His Covenant Law with its life & blessings for faithfulness and death & curses for unfaithfulness and He's commanding them to choose life. We know that from this comes the Remnant. But this is life for a people already in covenant so is it a fair discussion for election theology? Election theology will go back at minimum to the salvation from Egypt which has taken place many times on the UGE thread.
If you look at that linked work I started, not being certain how you view election, it begins to tell the election story in at least the Patriarchs eventuating in the main Chosen One. IMO election really plays out in how we fit in under the headship of those God chose for a purpose as the Apostles were chosen by our Lord for His purpose.
IOW, what is actual election and what is it not?
If we really get down to it, I'm not even sure Dt30 is a legitimate discussion. Maybe it is. God is speaking to men He's revealed Himself to and rescued from slavery. He's given them His Covenant Law with its life & blessings for faithfulness and death & curses for unfaithfulness and He's commanding them to choose life. We know that from this comes the Remnant. But this is life for a people already in covenant so is it a fair discussion for election theology? Election theology will go back at minimum to the salvation from Egypt which has taken place many times on the UGE thread.
If you look at that linked work I started, not being certain how you view election, it begins to tell the election story in at least the Patriarchs eventuating in the main Chosen One. IMO election really plays out in how we fit in under the headship of those God chose for a purpose as the Apostles were chosen by our Lord for His purpose.
IOW, what is actual election and what is it not?
Yes, understanding the various meanings of election is part of the work that is needed, but keep in mind that being chosen is not being disputed, but rather whether God shows favoritism and hate by choosing only some to be saved while choosing the rest to be damned.
Regarding John 15:16, you just showed how that verse can be harmonized with Matt. 7:7, so "one less thing" (Forrest Gump).
Now what about Romans 6:11&16?
As you figure that out, I am preparing the next substantive post on UGE for analysis (#91).
Regarding John 15:16, you just showed how that verse can be harmonized with Matt. 7:7, so "one less thing" (Forrest Gump).
Now what about Romans 6:11&16?
As you figure that out, I am preparing the next substantive post on UGE for analysis (#91).