Hell
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There is a lot written about it. I discovered by doing a search on Sheol and reading commentaries that there was more to it than what I had heard preachers say.
If David expects to be redeemed from Sheol he has a negative view of it.
There are so many views about it even from the Rabbinical writers.
Our objective is to try and ascertain what the biblical authors meant when they used the word. Having some reasonable expectation that they would have used it as it was understood by those of their time when they wrote. Finding that there were many views from ancient writers makes it more challenging as to which if any of these views that biblical author had in mind.
My studies so far make me lean toward it being understood in the similar way that we understand hell. Howbeit before Jesus gave us more revelation. So there is a shady sort of understanding of a place of judgment for bad people and you did not want to go there.
I do not think that Jacob meant grave when he used the word but that was how some OT interpreters read it and taught it and so the idea that it meant grave has an ancient history but was not what Jacob intended.
At this time I think Hell is a good interpretation because it conveys the meaning most would understand.
I don't expect anyone to decide without reading the scholarly presentations that are available.
What I do know is that many preachers say things they read from a non technical book and repeat it and what they are saying cannot be supported by exegesis of the text itself.
If David expects to be redeemed from Sheol he has a negative view of it.
There are so many views about it even from the Rabbinical writers.
Our objective is to try and ascertain what the biblical authors meant when they used the word. Having some reasonable expectation that they would have used it as it was understood by those of their time when they wrote. Finding that there were many views from ancient writers makes it more challenging as to which if any of these views that biblical author had in mind.
My studies so far make me lean toward it being understood in the similar way that we understand hell. Howbeit before Jesus gave us more revelation. So there is a shady sort of understanding of a place of judgment for bad people and you did not want to go there.
I do not think that Jacob meant grave when he used the word but that was how some OT interpreters read it and taught it and so the idea that it meant grave has an ancient history but was not what Jacob intended.
At this time I think Hell is a good interpretation because it conveys the meaning most would understand.
I don't expect anyone to decide without reading the scholarly presentations that are available.
What I do know is that many preachers say things they read from a non technical book and repeat it and what they are saying cannot be supported by exegesis of the text itself.
Think this through.
If you commit to this sort of bad hermeneutics you will have to teach that David went to hell and was brought back as well.
It is not intellectually honest to allow David to be poetic or prophetic in references to being delivered from hell and sheol and the pit but insist on literal death for Jonah.
Your three prayers are an obvious straining at the text and imaginative interpretations. He said he prayed from the Belly of the fish when he found himself in a hopeless situation that he compared to being in the belly of hell with seaweed wrapped around his head and before his life had faded he tells us what the prayer was. ONE PRAYER.
Also you still have not explained how he could be in the belly of hell with seaweed wrapped around his head. Is there seaweed in hell then?
That is an important detail.
If you commit to this sort of bad hermeneutics you will have to teach that David went to hell and was brought back as well.
It is not intellectually honest to allow David to be poetic or prophetic in references to being delivered from hell and sheol and the pit but insist on literal death for Jonah.
Your three prayers are an obvious straining at the text and imaginative interpretations. He said he prayed from the Belly of the fish when he found himself in a hopeless situation that he compared to being in the belly of hell with seaweed wrapped around his head and before his life had faded he tells us what the prayer was. ONE PRAYER.
Also you still have not explained how he could be in the belly of hell with seaweed wrapped around his head. Is there seaweed in hell then?
That is an important detail.
.
According to Acts 2:25-35, the apostle Peter said that Psalm 16:8-10 isn't talking
about David.
• Eccl 5:15 . . Naked a man comes from his mother's womb; and as he
comes, so he departs. He takes nothing from his labor that he can carry in
his hand.
That is very true. In point of fact, when people die they not only leave their
bodies behind, but even the clothes they wore for their funeral; which of
course would include any seaweed their corpse might be wearing for a hat.
It's a little disturbing to think that folks in the netherworld are completely
disrobed. It would be nice if rewbies are issued some sort of special afterlife
garb when they arrive to prevent the place from taking on the appearance of
a ghostly nudist colony.
_
According to Acts 2:25-35, the apostle Peter said that Psalm 16:8-10 isn't talking
about David.
• Eccl 5:15 . . Naked a man comes from his mother's womb; and as he
comes, so he departs. He takes nothing from his labor that he can carry in
his hand.
That is very true. In point of fact, when people die they not only leave their
bodies behind, but even the clothes they wore for their funeral; which of
course would include any seaweed their corpse might be wearing for a hat.
It's a little disturbing to think that folks in the netherworld are completely
disrobed. It would be nice if rewbies are issued some sort of special afterlife
garb when they arrive to prevent the place from taking on the appearance of
a ghostly nudist colony.
_
Right. Jonah said he was in the belly of hell with seaweed wrapped around his head and we know that he was not in literal hell with seaweed so we know that he meant the belly of the fish was being likened to the belly of hell and he did not mean for anyone to take him literally.
I just can't see it any other way. The text is so easy to follow. It requires doing violation to the reading rules to force a literal death and resurrection in there.
And remember that Jesus only said that "as Jonah was 3 days in the belly of the whale/great fish" and said nothing of Jonah being three days in hell. This means that Jesus interpreted Jonah's statements about hell as meaning the belly of the fish.
I just can't see it any other way. The text is so easy to follow. It requires doing violation to the reading rules to force a literal death and resurrection in there.
And remember that Jesus only said that "as Jonah was 3 days in the belly of the whale/great fish" and said nothing of Jonah being three days in hell. This means that Jesus interpreted Jonah's statements about hell as meaning the belly of the fish.
I would say that we should keep an open mind and read all of the references on the word before we draw our conclusions.
You say that they who put their faith in God expected to go to Sheol and then be redeemed from there. I don't think that is what David meant.
I say that the righteous expected to go up to God and what we are used to calling heaven, and to escape the hell beneath. They believed that their righteous living would grant them such a reward. That was their common theology.
Proverbs 15:24
NIV
The path of life leads upward for the prudent to keep them from going down to the realm of the dead.
KJV
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
ESV
The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
The righteous expected to go up to heaven not down to sheol.
This is one of the scriptures Jesus was referring to when he spoke the parable where Abraham tells the richman that his 5 brothers could be warned of the place of torment by reading Moses and the Prophets. There are verses like this one in the OT that the brothers should pay attention to if they want to escape Sheol.
Abraham and the beggar were UP when the richman looked up and not in the same location as he was. They were not both in Sheol.
The richman was buried and in hell he looked up.
The angles carried the beggar and I am assuming it was UP not down.
Now it was a parable and we can't turn it into an exhaustive explanation of the details of the afterlife but my point is that these verses in the OT such as Prov 15:24 were there and warned the 5 brothers that the way of Life was ABOVE for the wise to escape the Sheol beneath.
You say that they who put their faith in God expected to go to Sheol and then be redeemed from there. I don't think that is what David meant.
I say that the righteous expected to go up to God and what we are used to calling heaven, and to escape the hell beneath. They believed that their righteous living would grant them such a reward. That was their common theology.
Proverbs 15:24
NIV
The path of life leads upward for the prudent to keep them from going down to the realm of the dead.
KJV
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
ESV
The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
The righteous expected to go up to heaven not down to sheol.
This is one of the scriptures Jesus was referring to when he spoke the parable where Abraham tells the richman that his 5 brothers could be warned of the place of torment by reading Moses and the Prophets. There are verses like this one in the OT that the brothers should pay attention to if they want to escape Sheol.
Abraham and the beggar were UP when the richman looked up and not in the same location as he was. They were not both in Sheol.
The richman was buried and in hell he looked up.
The angles carried the beggar and I am assuming it was UP not down.
Now it was a parable and we can't turn it into an exhaustive explanation of the details of the afterlife but my point is that these verses in the OT such as Prov 15:24 were there and warned the 5 brothers that the way of Life was ABOVE for the wise to escape the Sheol beneath.
Prov 15:24 The path of life leads upward for the wise, that he may avoid going down to Sheol.
They would be right to believe that verse. And I am sure that you agree with that.
They would be right to believe that verse. And I am sure that you agree with that.
The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to Sheol, which
could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14),
and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10). source
Jesus never disagreed with "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath."
What he said about no man having ascended to heaven does not contradict Proverbs 15
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
As to the meaning of Sheol.
I know that many believe and repeat what you posted about Sheol. I get that. I used to repeat it to because I read it in books.
Then when I started reading verse by verse study with commentary helps I learned that it is not the most popular view among the scholars. It turns out that more of them think that Sheol was understood as the place of the wicked dead and these verses you posted do not say that they thought that all people go to Sheol and it is sorted out from there.
It does not say that Sheol can be translated as Grave either. This came from interpreting these texts not from translating the word. The word itself does not mean grave.
That came from thinking that is what Jacob meant or what Job meant. But what if they meant that place where wicked people go. Jacob thought he was under a curse of judgment and expected Sheol is where he was going when he said that. (or it is possible that is what he meant)
Job straight out said he was under judgment and thought he must be going to hell and so what he says about hiding him in Sheol has the background of him judging himself as a sinner under judgment in previous rantings.
So none of these verses prove that Sheol should be translated Grave or just some nuetral place. And this is what the scholars talk about.
We have been told things that have not been clearly proven and we repeat them as fact.
If one takes the time to read each of those verses and if they think "what if they were thinking of hell" then one can see that it fits most of these verses and the tenor of the speaker much better than what they might have realized before trying this exercise.
Sometimes we do well to put aside assumptions that make us read into a text what it did not say. Grave being one of them.
Realm of the dead fits, but it fits even more if one sees it as the realm of the wicked dead.
This seems to be the better hermeneutic but I still have more study to do on it. I have put it on a shelf for now.
I am just no longer convinced that it should be read as Grave or just realm of the dead for everybody and God sorts it out later meaning. That no longer seems like the intended idea now that I have read what these scholars are saying about it.
There is a good article on it that I will try and find again. It was well done and included lots of footnotes and references and I planned to dig deeper. If I can find it again I will post it.
I am not trying to change your mind about what you believe about it. I am just interested in this as a good CC topic because it is one of those that has the potential to open a lot of minds to the subject of hermeneutics and how to discover authorial intent.
What he said about no man having ascended to heaven does not contradict Proverbs 15
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
As to the meaning of Sheol.
I know that many believe and repeat what you posted about Sheol. I get that. I used to repeat it to because I read it in books.
Then when I started reading verse by verse study with commentary helps I learned that it is not the most popular view among the scholars. It turns out that more of them think that Sheol was understood as the place of the wicked dead and these verses you posted do not say that they thought that all people go to Sheol and it is sorted out from there.
It does not say that Sheol can be translated as Grave either. This came from interpreting these texts not from translating the word. The word itself does not mean grave.
That came from thinking that is what Jacob meant or what Job meant. But what if they meant that place where wicked people go. Jacob thought he was under a curse of judgment and expected Sheol is where he was going when he said that. (or it is possible that is what he meant)
Job straight out said he was under judgment and thought he must be going to hell and so what he says about hiding him in Sheol has the background of him judging himself as a sinner under judgment in previous rantings.
So none of these verses prove that Sheol should be translated Grave or just some nuetral place. And this is what the scholars talk about.
We have been told things that have not been clearly proven and we repeat them as fact.
If one takes the time to read each of those verses and if they think "what if they were thinking of hell" then one can see that it fits most of these verses and the tenor of the speaker much better than what they might have realized before trying this exercise.
Sometimes we do well to put aside assumptions that make us read into a text what it did not say. Grave being one of them.
Realm of the dead fits, but it fits even more if one sees it as the realm of the wicked dead.
This seems to be the better hermeneutic but I still have more study to do on it. I have put it on a shelf for now.
I am just no longer convinced that it should be read as Grave or just realm of the dead for everybody and God sorts it out later meaning. That no longer seems like the intended idea now that I have read what these scholars are saying about it.
There is a good article on it that I will try and find again. It was well done and included lots of footnotes and references and I planned to dig deeper. If I can find it again I will post it.
I am not trying to change your mind about what you believe about it. I am just interested in this as a good CC topic because it is one of those that has the potential to open a lot of minds to the subject of hermeneutics and how to discover authorial intent.
.
That's a very common mistake, very common, and of course when someone
starts off on the wrong foot in the second chapter of Jonah, they end up on
the wrong foot.
But as I said before, it's likely not essential that folks believe Jonah died
during his nautical adventure and anon his dead body restored to life just so
long as they believe that Jesus' dead body was restored to life. There's quite
a few facts in the Bible that folks can get by without believing, but that's not
one of them.
• 1Cor 15:1-4 . . Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I
preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which
also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless
you believed for nothing. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I
also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and
that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the
scriptures.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' theology insists Jesus' crucified dead body is still
dead, and its remains are squirreled away on earth in a condition and a
location known only to God. They say that the body of Jesus that his friends
supposedly saw back from the dead wasn't really his body, rather, it was
what they call a materialized body, i.e. an avatar.
When a JW leaves here holding to that error, then of course they end up on
the wrong side of things over there, viz: start wrong, end wrong.
_
That's a very common mistake, very common, and of course when someone
starts off on the wrong foot in the second chapter of Jonah, they end up on
the wrong foot.
But as I said before, it's likely not essential that folks believe Jonah died
during his nautical adventure and anon his dead body restored to life just so
long as they believe that Jesus' dead body was restored to life. There's quite
a few facts in the Bible that folks can get by without believing, but that's not
one of them.
• 1Cor 15:1-4 . . Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I
preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which
also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless
you believed for nothing. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I
also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and
that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the
scriptures.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' theology insists Jesus' crucified dead body is still
dead, and its remains are squirreled away on earth in a condition and a
location known only to God. They say that the body of Jesus that his friends
supposedly saw back from the dead wasn't really his body, rather, it was
what they call a materialized body, i.e. an avatar.
When a JW leaves here holding to that error, then of course they end up on
the wrong side of things over there, viz: start wrong, end wrong.
_