Hell

[Webers.Home]

.
• Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah
was inside the fish three days and three nights.

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No.

At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol
(Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no;
they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could
possibly be at the roots of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of
a fish was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate
ways.

And then there's Jesus . . .

• Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a
huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the
Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the
surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the
Earth while simultaneously in the heart of the Earth was for the man and his
body to part company and go their separate ways.
_

 

[Amanuensis]

It matters greatly, because getting it wrong clouds the whole issue.

you make the claim without explaining how it clouds anything.

Sheol is Hebrew, and generally speaking after all the dicussion has been said it most likely was intended to reference the bad place where the wicked go (or hell in popular thought of today)
Hades is Greek. Used in the bible it is not referring to the Greek mythology but is just the Greek word used for the same place (Hell, the place for the wicked dead, a place of torment like the richman was in)
Hell is the word that the KJV translators used and became the most popularly used word in the world today for referencing that place that the wicked dead go where there is torment.
Gehenna can be referencing both hell or Lake of Fire depending on how it is used in context.

No one really puts a difference between Hades and hell. Gehenna is the one that gets the most discussion as possibly referring to Lake of Fire. Sheol gets called the grave in many translations but a scholarly study suggests that it should really be translated hell since Grave was not what was intended by most of the texts and a place of punishment for the wicked dead was more likely.

Even when Jacob said the death of Benjamin would bring his hoary head down to sheol I believe he meant Hell because he figured he was going to the place of the wicked dead if Benjamin also died after Rachel and Joseph. He must be being punished for his sins. Obviously he was going to Sheol.

This text of Jacobs is the main reason everyone started thinking Sheol was equivalent to grave. But what if Jacob meant hell. Then every where else it is used it seems to suggest hell.

Hades is simply the Greek word for the same place.

There is nothing to be cloudy about, unless one starts trying to apply different places to Sheol, Hades, Hell, Pit, etc...

The parable Jesus gave made it clear enough. Moses and the Prophets (scriptures) warn of a place of torment for the wicked dead.

No one needs to use Dante and try and guess what compartments or levels there are. The richmans lament was all we need to know. "I am tormented in this flame" How cares if it is not the same as a campfire flame or if it is not subject to physical laws. He was in a state of torment and there was never given to him even a ghost of a hint that it would be over one day in the future.

Don't call God cruel about this. Don't even weep for one who is in hell. Weep before they go there. But not after they arrive. Remember Nadab and Abihu. Calling God cruel about eternal torment is a sign one does not yet know the Lord. Has not yet had their minds renewed to the justice and holiness and perfect righteousness of God.

 

[Journeyman]

some miss the part where hell
Is emptied

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it could be ( I dont personally know ) but could be like your saying that hell
Is a place of torment and punishment of all wickedness and after thoer debt is paid do you think some could then repent ? Or be destroyed completely ?

it seems that some who are brought up to jidgement from being in hell are judged at that point and if they are t found in the book of life cast away

I think I understand what your saying and it seems possible and plausible though I don’t really have a conclusion myself I tend to look at other things also and it’s just not completely clear on That. Part magenta got me thinking abo it what your saying awhile ago but I still see evidence for eternal punishment , and eternal Place of torment and no rest for the wicked yet what your saying is also very possible thanks for sharing

Hello Pilgrimshope.
I believe the lake of fire is the presence of Christ and the "2nd resurrection" is bodily of all the dead both saved and unsaved.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That’s an interesting point that I don’t think I ever really consciously noticed before. They are brought up from hell to check if they are in the book of life or not.

Didn’t they go to hell for not being in the book of life? Maybe we always assumed that.

What if people in hell are found in the book of life? That part in Revelation 20 suggests to me that if they need to check the book of life to see if people who were in hell are in it then there’s a possibility they could be.

yes I see the same possibility to be clear I do not know but also see the same thing your saying as a possibility


and some of the things Jesus said like just for instance this example Jesus is teaching about the kingdom and forgiveness

the man was initially forgiven all his debt but then he wouldn’t have mercy on others that owed him

“Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:32-35‬ ‭

there seems to be “you pay for what you’ve done “ it would seem a murderer would owe much more than someone who stole bread both sinned but what justice would have the same sentance based on their deeds ?

or for instance this


“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems as if each individual has thier standstd of judgement based on what they really do understand d the differing measures of punishment also lends to the consideration

Notice how there are “
Books “ opened at judgement and also there is the book of life seperate my opened ? And how the judgement is according to what’s in the books, according tonthier own deeds but then being written in the book of life saves some of them later after hell gives up it’s dead

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


what I’m meaning is all the people are judged by their deeds according to wha ya in the books that are opened

but the book of life is seperate from those books it has a saving purpose not a condemning one as the other books and even afterwards it comes down to whosoever is not written in the book of the life of the lamb , is cast away into the flames

notice no one is saved by thoer deeds but it’s the book of life the o thy r book opened that has the salvation power to save them from the lake of fire

 

[Amanuensis]

.
• Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah
was inside the fish three days and three nights.

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No.

At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol
(Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no;
they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could
possibly be at the roots of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of
a fish was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate
ways.

And then there's Jesus . . .

• Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a
huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the
Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the
surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the
Earth while simultaneously in the heart of the Earth was for the man and his
body to part company and go their separate ways.
_

Jonah clearly says that he did not die. He said in verse 7 that before his life had faded completely he prayed from the belly of the fish which he had describes as the belly of hell.

Verse 1 says he prayed from the belly of the fish
in verse 4 He says he was in the belly of hell.
Verse 5 says he had seaweed around his head
Verse 6 says that he was at the foundations of the mountains
Verse 7 says he was still alive and his life was fading.
Verse 8 he starts his prayer that in verse 1 he said he prayed from the Belly of the Fish


The roots of the mountains are at the bottom of the ocean. There are mountains in the ocean. The deepest parts are the trenches between them. It is a perfect description of a fish taking him to the deep. But there is much more in the text itself to make it clear that he did not die.

Jonah was aware that the fish had taken him to the deepest part of the ocean and he likened being in the belly of the fish to being in the belly of hell. He said that seaweed was wrapped around his head.

FAQ: Did Jonah believe that there was seaweed in hell?
Reply: No. Jonah was describing what a miserable place he was in and how far down the fish had dove and what he expected to happen if he died. But while he was saying it was the belly of hell, he said there was seaweed wrapped around his head which means he wasn't literally in hell yet.

First of all most scholars believe Jonah wrote Jonah.
If so Jonah himself says... "Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, from the belly of hell" He was well aware that he was literally in the belly of this fish when he said the prayer, which he said that he prayed just as the life was fading away. So before his life faded away he had already described himself as being in the belly of hell, at the foot of the mountains, under the sea...

Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish:2I called to the Lord in my distress, and he answered me. I cried out for help from deep inside Sheol;



So it is obvious that he is describing himself as having seaweed wrapped around his head in the belly of the fish, in the belly of hell which was his description of his circumstances. And I am sure what he expected next as soon as his life did fade away completely was that he would go to hell for disobeying the Lord, but before his life faded away completely, as it was fading, he called upon the Lord and was saved from the pit, just as David was saved from the Pit, and I was saved from the Pit. Not that we have been there literally but we were on our way.



Verse 1 says he prayed from the belly of the fish
in verse 4 He says he was in the belly of hell.
Verse 5 says he had seaweed around his head
Verse 6 says that he was at the foundations of the mountains
Verse 7 says he was still alive and his life was fading.
Verse 8 he starts his prayer that in verse 1 he said he prayed from the Belly of the Fish.

How anyone like J Vernon McGee who was supposed to be able to exegete can mess this up I just don't understand.

Like when David said you will not leave my soul in hell. Did David go to hell and write that psalm about it? No. Did Jonah mean he went to hell? No. He was writing what was almost a psalm of praise about how God delivered him from almost going there literally and what must have felt like a living hell while he was going through it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hello Pilgrimshope.
I believe the lake of fire is the presence of Christ and the "2nd resurrection" is bodily of all the dead both saved and unsaved.

do you think the fire has anything to do with the wrath of God ? What I mean is do you think this


“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think that has anything to do with this

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11, 13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭

 

[Runningman]

yes I see the same possibility to be clear I do not know but also see the same thing your saying as a possibility


and some of the things Jesus said like just for instance this example Jesus is teaching about the kingdom and forgiveness

the man was initially forgiven all his debt but then he wouldn’t have mercy on others that owed him

“Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:32-35‬ ‭

there seems to be “you pay for what you’ve done “ it would seem a murderer would owe much more than someone who stole bread both sinned but what justice would have the same sentance based on their deeds ?

or for instance this


“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems as if each individual has thier standstd of judgement based on what they really do understand d the differing measures of punishment also lends to the consideration

Notice how there are “
Books “ opened at judgement and also there is the book of life seperate my opened ? And how the judgement is according to what’s in the books, according tonthier own deeds but then being written in the book of life saves some of them later after hell gives up it’s dead

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


what I’m meaning is all the people are judged by their deeds according to wha ya in the books that are opened

but the book of life is seperate from those books it has a saving purpose not a condemning one as the other books and even afterwards it comes down to whosoever is not written in the book of the life of the lamb , is cast away into the flames

notice no one is saved by thoer deeds but it’s the book of life the o thy r book opened that has the salvation power to save them from the lake of fire

Exactly. That’s a rather curious topic that isn’t mentioned much. It does seem like there is evidence to suggest at least that it’s possible to have a pit stop in hell for punishment even if someone’s name is written in the book of life.

Could this be for Christians who have done very bad things? Were disobedient or didn’t avoid sin enough? It’s difficult to say, but I can’t rule it out now.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Exactly. That’s a rather curious topic that isn’t mentioned much. It does seem like there is evidence to suggest at least that it’s possible to have a pit stop in hell for punishment even if someone’s name is written in the book of life.

Could this be for Christians who have done very bad things? Were disobedient or didn’t avoid sin enough? It’s difficult to say, but I can’t rule it out now.

amen I’m having the same experience not sure either way but definately noticing a lot of new angles and considerations

good subject for prayer and study

I’m remembering as I’m typing remember it says Jesus went after he died in the spirit and preached to those in the spiritual prisons from the time of Noah ?

again that suggests that death isn’t the end of people hearing the gospel

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had died thousands of years prior

 

[Journeyman]

do you think the fire has anything to do with the wrath of God ? What I mean is do you think this


“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think that has anything to do with this

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11, 13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭

Yes. Both saved and unsaved are examined before Jesus. Works and also the individual,

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cor.3:15

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Jonah clearly says that he did not die.

It probably isn't essential that you accept Jonah's dead body was restored
to life within three days and nights as long as you are agreeable that Jesus'
body was.

The language and grammar of Jonah's second chapter is a mite tricky and
unless Bible students know what to look for, his resurrection is very easy to
miss so I don't fault people when they do.
_

 

[Amanuensis]

.



It probably isn't essential that you accept Jonah's dead body was restored
to life within three days and nights as long as you are agreeable that Jesus'
body was.

The language and grammar of Jonah's second chapter is a mite tricky and
unless Bible students know what to look for, his resurrection is very easy to
miss so I don't fault people when they do.
_

One would have to read resurrection into it with nothing in the text to support it. Which is not tricky it is eisegesis instead of exegesis. Any first year bible student learning hermeneutics will know how to exegete this passage and conclude that Jonah clearly states that while his life was fading he prayed and was delivered, not that he died and was revived.

Jesus simply said that the sign of Jonas being three days in the BELLY of the Fish. And He would be Three days in the heart of the earth. Jesus did not say Jonah was in hell for three days.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The miraculous deliverance of Jonah was known to the Ninevites which caused them to repent. Gentiles mind you.

The raising of Christ from the dead was even more miraculous but the Jews still did not repent and so Jerusalem was destroyed and they were scattered as a nation whereas Nineveh was spared by the sign of Jonah because of how they responded.

The message is not that Jonah died and went to hell. But the impact his miraculous deliverance from three days at the bottom of the ocean in the belly of a fish and vomited on the beach caused these gentiles to listen with respect and repent. What did the Jews do? It is a contrast in responses. And Jesus is talking to them in a scolding tone of voice. "No sign shall be given this unbelieving generation but the sign of Jonas the prophet. They repented at the preaching of Jonas having seen what had happened to him. But this unregenerate people will not repent even though Jesus will be raised from the dead after 3 days in the heart of the earth.

 

[Amanuensis]

.



It probably isn't essential that you accept Jonah's dead body was restored
to life within three days and nights as long as you are agreeable that Jesus'
body was.

The language and grammar of Jonah's second chapter is a mite tricky and
unless Bible students know what to look for, his resurrection is very easy to
miss so I don't fault people when they do.
_

In verse 4 he said he was in the belly of hell. In verse 5 he said sea weed was wrapped around his head. So.... how does seaweed get into hell?

 

[Amanuensis]

.



It probably isn't essential that you accept Jonah's dead body was restored
to life within three days and nights as long as you are agreeable that Jesus'
body was.

The language and grammar of Jonah's second chapter is a mite tricky and
unless Bible students know what to look for, his resurrection is very easy to
miss so I don't fault people when they do.
_

I fault people who suggest that Jonah died, went to hell for three days and was resurrected before Jesus, making Jonah the first one resurrected from the dead rather than Jesus. The erroneous theological implications of such an obviously bad hermeneutic should be obvious to anyone who suggests this.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

I fault people who suggest that Jonah died, went to hell for three days and
was resurrected before Jesus, making Jonah the first one resurrected from
the dead rather than Jesus.

A number of dead bodies were restored to life prior to Jesus'. For example,
not counting Jonah, there was 1Kings 13:20-20, 2Kings 4:18-37, 2Kings
13:20-21, Matt 11:5, Luke 8:49-55, Luke 7:12-15, and of course John 11:1-44.

I'm guessing you've been tripped up by passages like Col 1:18, 1Cor 15:20,
and Rev 1:5. (a common error)

BTW: Why do you keep saying hell? Jonah went to a place called sheol,
which is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word haides, which simply
refers to the netherworld; a place where at one time all the dead retired,
both the good dead and the bad dead regardless of age, race, gender and/or
religious preference.
_

 

[Amanuensis]

.



A number of dead bodies were restored to life prior to Jesus'. For example,
not counting Jonah, there was 1Kings 13:20-20, 2Kings 4:18-37, 2Kings
13:20-21, Matt 11:5, Luke 8:49-55, Luke 7:12-15, and of course John 11:1-44.

I'm guessing you've been tripped up by passages like Col 1:18, 1Cor 15:20,
and Rev 1:5. (a common error)

BTW: Why do you keep saying hell? Jonah went to a place called sheol,
which is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word haides, which simply
refers to the netherworld; a place where at one time all the dead retired,
both the good dead and the bad dead regardless of age, race, gender and/or
religious preference.
_

Actually I side with the view that Sheol was referring to the place for the wicked dead and this discussion has a long history in academic scholarship. Not everyone agrees but I do.

Hell is another word for it and the one used in the KJV and the one most people would use today in understanding authorial intent.

But I have already demonstrated that Jonah said he he was in hell (kjv) with seaweed wrapped around his head. And he said all that before he said while his life was fading he prayed.. and was delivered. So the plain meaning of the text is clear that he was not in literal hell, because 1) he had seaweed wrapped around his head and 2) his life was still fading.

It is really illogical and violates rules of language and comprehension to keep ignoring these basic facts and try and see a death here that could not have occurred if his life was still fading after he said all this about being in the belly of hell with seaweed around his head. And then while his life was fading he prayed and was delivered.

Saying a bunch of unrelated stuff does not make this go away.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
For the benefit of anyone curious as to how Jonah's nautical adventure
relates to Matt 12:40

To begin with: Jonah 2:1-2 tells of two prayers. One was prayed while Jonah
was interred in a fish's tummy, and the other was prayed while Jonah was
being held in sheol. In other words; the sheol prayer was uttered while
Jonah was deceased, and the fish prayer was uttered after Jonah's corpse
was restored to life.

Also, the language of Jonah's fish prayer strongly indicates that he
underwent a resurrection.

"I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was
around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Lord
my God." (Jonah 2:6)

The Hebrew word translated "bars" oftentimes indicates the mechanical
device by which ancient city gates were held closed. (cf. Matt 16:18)

The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse speaks of putrefaction.

The very same Hebrew word is located in Ps 16:8-10, which Acts 2:25-31
verifies is speaking of a dead body.

Jonah 2:7 tells of yet a third prayer, which was actually Jonah's first, uttered
while he was losing consciousness. (cf. Luke 23:46)

So then, just as Jonah's soul was not left imprisoned in the earth, neither
was Christ's. And just as Jonah's dead body wasn't left to decompose,
neither was Christ's. And just as Jonah's dead body was restored to life
within three days and nights, so was Christ's. If none of this were so, then
Jonah's experience would be a pretty useless parallel to Christ's if the only
thing we're to get out of it is the time element.
_

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes. Both saved and unsaved are examined before Jesus. Works and also the individual,

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cor.3:15

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

it seems they are judged solely according to their doings thier deeds

“will render to every man according to his deeds:”

and this judgement determines whether they receive this


them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

Or this

“them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,”

do you think that believers who are disobedient still have a debt to pay ? And maybe they will be saved after it’s paid ?

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭KJ

remember the books are what deeds are judged by and the book of life is what saves

it’s the old and New Testament the law which defines every deed we’ve done that’s sinful and accuses us and makes us guilty before God by our deeds alone

and the gospel the word of life that offers eternal Life and salvstion from the deeds we’ve done behind us without the gospel we couldnt be saved from the lake of fire

the key is repentance without this

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this would be everyone’s situation no one could ever be justified

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It seems possible that your original comment I replied to is spot on was the purpose of my reply it made me really think and look into some scripture

 

[RichGladden]

I've had experience of many denominations - trinitarian and unitarian - encountering many, many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. One major issues in contention is the subject of Hell as a place of conscious torment.
There is material in the Bible, on prima facie consideration, to support either view.
I'd be interested to hear others' opinions and biblical evidence for either view.

It may have no bearing on this topic, but I think focusing on the eternal absence of our creator and God, is worse than any hell, regardless of how long it lasts. Just a thought.

 

[Magenta]

Actually I side with the view that Sheol was referring to the place for the wicked dead and
this discussion has a long history in academic scholarship. Not everyone agrees but I do.

Hell is another word for it and the one used in the KJV and the one most people would use today in understanding authorial intent.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my life from Sheol, for He will surely take me to Himself.

The psalmist expected to go to Sheol. It was simply understood as the realm of the dead.

Multiple words were wrongly translated into hell. KJV was a major player in this error.

 

[Journeyman]

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

it seems they are judged solely according to their doings thier deeds

“will render to every man according to his deeds:”

and this judgement determines whether they receive this


them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

Or this

“them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,”

do you think that believers who are disobedient still have a debt to pay ? And maybe they will be saved after it’s paid ?

I don't believe there is a debt to pay. I believe once forgiven, God conforms us back to his image.

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭KJ

remember the books are what deeds are judged by and the book of life is what saves

it’s the old and New Testament the law which defines every deed we’ve done that’s sinful and accuses us and makes us guilty before God by our deeds alone

and the gospel the word of life that offers eternal Life and salvstion from the deeds we’ve done behind us without the gospel we couldnt be saved from the lake of fire

the key is repentance without this

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this would be everyone’s situation no one could ever be justified

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems possible that your original comment I replied to is spot on was the purpose of my reply it made me really think and look into some scripture

I believe the books of works include both good deeds that honor God and bad deeds which dishonor him, as the "Judgment seat of Christ" and "Great white throne judgment both show, because they're the same judgment.