Hell, Sheol, Hades...
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Beats me. Somehow the idea of God making everything new escapes them. Perhaps they think like this:
Oh, everything has been made new except for over here we have the oven (lake of fire) where we watch
people being tormented day and night, because this is how we see God's justice, mercy, and love operate.
.
His was a case of indifference rather than actions. I gather from the story
that the rich man's five brothers were failing to listen to Moses and the
Prophets; so I'm guessing he ignored them too; in particular Isa 66:23-24.
_
His was a case of indifference rather than actions. I gather from the story
that the rich man's five brothers were failing to listen to Moses and the
Prophets; so I'm guessing he ignored them too; in particular Isa 66:23-24.
_
Just something to consider:
We understand easily God's mercy, love, and grace because of the tremendous effect they have upon us and the changes that they have wrought in us. And we understand how awesome it would be if everyone would be saved. And our own love that God has shed abroad in our hearts rightly desires all to be saved and also the best for those who are not.
But God who is love is also just and eternal. The justice of God requires that the same way He loves to the uttermost, He must also be just to the uttermost. And the same eternality of God that extends eternal life also requires eternal justice.
It is easy for us to imagine and be encouraged by a divine love that would extend forever but hard to see how God is glorified in eternal justice. But He is equally glorified in all His excellence.
I offer this as someone who shares your sensibilities.
Good morning, Cameron
God requiring eternal justice does not equate to eternal conscious torment. Is that the sensibility you have? Believing that being deprived of life is not punishment, that death is
nothing to fear... do you agree that those ideas are contrary to what Scripture says? Both of those ideas
are contradicted by what Scripture teaches. Another irrational argument Christians put forth is that
atheists get what they want if they simply pass out of life.
I wonder how many here have spent time speaking with atheists about their views on Christian beliefs.
It seems to be thrown around a lot, you know, this idea that they get what they want if (2nd) death is
their end. Is this supposed to be some kind of deterrent to aligning one's beliefs with Scripture?
Because Scripture also says that God brings rain on the just and the unjust.
For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
"But then they get what they want!!!" It sounds like something a petulant child would say.
Besides that, atheists' beliefs are all over the map when it comes to religious views on the end of life.
They say such things as they would rather burn in hell than worship God. Advancing the notion that
atheists' beliefs hold any credibility on this is really not something Christians should do, but they do.
A resignation to one's fate does not equate to any desire for it.
I'm bracing for the 'you're stinky!' argument.
.
● Gen 2:7 . . And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A living soul can be roughly defined as a sentient being. The Hebrew word is
nephesh; which isn't unique to human live. It's first appearance is at
Gen 1:20-21 in reference to aqua creatures and winged creatures; again at
Gen 1:24 as terra creatures; viz: cattle, creepy crawlies, and wild beasts;
and again in Gen 2:7 as the human creature; and yet again at Gen 9:10 to
classify all life aboard Noah's ark.
Anyway: according to Matt 10:28, the sentient nature of human life is able
to survive the death of the body. But people's sentience isn't indestructible.
God is able to destroy it in a place called in the Greek language geena, which
many of us take to be the lake of fire depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Well; the thing is: if somebody's sentience is destroyed, then how do they
remain conscious and/or aware of their circumstances?
Take for example the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. When the story was told,
that man was sentient in a place called in the Greek language haides, i.e. he
was conscious and aware of his circumstances. But I strongly suspect that
he would be neither conscious nor aware of his circumstances in geena
because its environment is designed to destroy the sentient nature of human
life.
_
● Gen 2:7 . . And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A living soul can be roughly defined as a sentient being. The Hebrew word is
nephesh; which isn't unique to human live. It's first appearance is at
Gen 1:20-21 in reference to aqua creatures and winged creatures; again at
Gen 1:24 as terra creatures; viz: cattle, creepy crawlies, and wild beasts;
and again in Gen 2:7 as the human creature; and yet again at Gen 9:10 to
classify all life aboard Noah's ark.
Anyway: according to Matt 10:28, the sentient nature of human life is able
to survive the death of the body. But people's sentience isn't indestructible.
God is able to destroy it in a place called in the Greek language geena, which
many of us take to be the lake of fire depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Well; the thing is: if somebody's sentience is destroyed, then how do they
remain conscious and/or aware of their circumstances?
Take for example the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. When the story was told,
that man was sentient in a place called in the Greek language haides, i.e. he
was conscious and aware of his circumstances. But I strongly suspect that
he would be neither conscious nor aware of his circumstances in geena
because its environment is designed to destroy the sentient nature of human
life.
_
The sensibilities we share are those that include good for all, and no doubt many others.Good morning, Cameron
Is that the sensibility you have? Believing that being deprived of life is not punishment, that death is
nothing to fear... do you agree that those ideas are contrary to what Scripture says? Both of those ideas
are contradicted by what Scripture teaches. Another irrational argument Christians put forth is that
atheists get what they want if they simply pass out of life.
I wonder how many here have spent time speaking with atheists about their views on Christian beliefs.
It seems to be thrown around a lot, you know, this idea that they get what they want if (2nd) death is
their end. Is this supposed to be some kind of deterrent to aligning one's beliefs with Scripture?
Because Scripture also says that God brings rain on the just and the unjust.
For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
"But then they get what they want!!!" It sounds like something a petulant child would say.
Besides that, atheists' beliefs are all over the map when it comes to religious views on the end of life.
They say such things as they would rather burn in hell than worship God. Advancing the notion that
atheists' beliefs hold any credibility on this is really not something Christians should do, but they do.
My purpose in sharing wasn't to cause you to defend your position to me. It was to offer a perspective you may not have considered.
My only interest when I share is that God might be glorified and others might be helped. If that hasn't been the case, my humblest apologies.
Where would you say is the lake of fire where the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever?
And by the way, scripture never states that the saved will be watching those being tormented.
Scripture explicitly states than man is held in bondage by their fear of death. Saying non-believers get what they want if they pass out of life flies in the face of this Scriptural truth. Given that death is consistently given as the wages of sin, likewise claiming that death is not punishment rather flies in the face of what Scripture teaches. Those who promote these beliefs and arguments seem to buy into the lies of non-beleivers while contradicting Scripture at the same time, but (oddly) don't seem to have a problem doing either.
.
● Isa 66:23-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me; says The Lord.
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled
against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they
will be loathsome to all mankind.
_
● Isa 66:23-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me; says The Lord.
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled
against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they
will be loathsome to all mankind.
_
I didn't say it did.
I have no idea. I'm sure God knows
This is sound like annihilation?
Revelation 21
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I asked questions in an attempt to discover what you believe on this issue
I spent many years speaking to non-believers before joining CC. I was also a non-believer until I was
almost fifty, so I am very well acquainted with how non-believers think and what they believe and their
attitudes towards those who believe in God. I just cannot give many of their ideas much credibility,
and really don't think other Christians should, either. It seems a poor argument to make, you know,
to say, non-believers get what they want if they pass out of life into the second death as Scripture
states. It is not what they want at all. I would contend that people want life, and that more abundantly,
but most do not know how to have that, and actually reject the solution to their impediments as part
and parcel along with their rejection of God.