Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

I feel that this "partaking..." goes far deeper than just sensing the love of Jesus in the eyes of a believer. It, I believe, refers to the holy communion with those of like precious faith.

well there is no way to prove that is there. Which means we must make scripture interpret scripture.

Scripture says God has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. This one verse alone is contradicted if one can lose salvation. because God did not perfect forever anyone..

again,m the context of Hebrews is the law. People who left the law to come to church, and tasted the heavenly gift, then returned to law.

it never said they were saved, it just states a fact.

if salvation can be lost, it can not be regained.

The law said if you sin, you lose salvation until a new atoning sacrifice is performed by the high priest.

so to go back to that law puts Christ to open shame.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ask King David.

I did, he was called a man after gods own heart as a child many years before he committed adultry and murder.

Abraham also. was considered righteous before he did all his sins.

You will never be perfect. thus you will never earn your salvation.

You can not lose what you can never earn to begin with, Thats where grace comes in.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

This entire argument usually misses the point of a relationship, a companionship between us and our creator.

Can you turn your back on your friend and walk away? Can you hurt him? Why wouldn't God deal with you harshly for something like that?

We will not be perfect in this life, but we do have a responsibility to our father because he is our friend.

 

[oyster67]

What is the first commandment?

It can and has been broken.

Can we lose our salvation technically? Think about it. Can we break the first commandment and fail to repent?

Back in those days men understood the danger of taking their relationship with God for granted. Much of modern Christianity-so-called seems to think that the atonement is simply a license to live as one wants. Just get sprinkled and dunked and you are good to go. Works great if you are a donut. It is not about works, but it is about abiding in the vine.

 

[samuel23]

Sure, for a minute I thought you were saying that unbelievers can experience the Holy Spirit.

 

[oyster67]

lol.. This is true.'


so why would someone who has true faith in God throw their cars in the lake. I mean, lets be honest here.. We are talking about eternity, not havign to walk home a few miles because you got mad and threw your keys away.

Now this is something we can agree on. I ponder this question myself. I think that is why the writer penned:

(Heb 6:9 [KJV])
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[oyster67]

well there is no way to prove that is there. Which means we must make scripture interpret scripture.

Scripture says God has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. This one verse alone is contradicted if one can lose salvation. because God did not perfect forever anyone..

again,m the context of Hebrews is the law. People who left the law to come to church, and tasted the heavenly gift, then returned to law.

it never said they were saved, it just states a fact.

if salvation can be lost, it can not be regained.

The law said if you sin, you lose salvation until a new atoning sacrifice is performed by the high priest.

so to go back to that law puts Christ to open shame.

I agree with the idea of positional perfection (the Father seeing us through the blood of the Son), the Scripture does state that there may be a point of no return, and I do believe that despising one's salvation is despising the atonement that Jesus accomplished for us at Calvary. One who has not received Christ or who has despised his salvation has gone back to being under the Law, by default, and the Law will be the thing that damns his soul on Judgement Day.

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I think the whole discussion on once saved always saved and people that lose salvation is something that is never talked about in the New Testament scriptures.

The scriptures and the Lord Jesus always talked about "life". God's quality of life. Sin is anything that is not participating in of the quality of God's life - coming short of the glory which is goodness of God.

We can "not be in faith" in any aspect of the Lord's finished work. Like peace - we can not be experiencing peace in a situation even though Jesus said He leaves us His peace. We don't believe we have this peace because the circumstance is screaming at us something totally different.

Therefor we are not partaking of His life that is available to us. His peace which is supposed to bring us life is not being manifested in us.

We are not experiencing the salvation of that peace in our lives. Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe, to preserve. There is no talk in the NT about losing one's salvation nor of a once saved always saved talking. They always talk about "life" and the believing of Christ and what he has done brings us His life which means that His life brings us salvation in every area - if we believe.

He that has the Son has eternal life but it is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises that come with this "life" that is in Him only.

This is why falling from grace nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives - we are depending on ourselves which is what all works-based mindsets are doing.

This is why we need to preach the love and grace of God shown in Christ's finished work so that we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him and experience this salvation and life that is ours in Christ while we are on this earth.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

I did, he was called a man after gods own heart as a child many years before he committed adultry and murder.

Abraham also. was considered righteous before he did all his sins.

You will never be perfect. thus you will never earn your salvation.

You can not lose what you can never earn to begin with, Thats where grace comes in.

Abraham was justified by faith. That's biblical. So was David. So was Solomon, but about that... Solomon messed up bigtime. You think he makes it in the end? I dunno, to be honest.

About that satanic synagogue...

 

[oyster67]

Personally I think the whole discussion on once saved always saved and people that lose salvation is something that is never talked about in the New Testament scriptures.

The scriptures and the Lord Jesus always talked about "life". God's quality of life. Sin is anything that is not participating in of the quality of God's life - coming short of the glory which is goodness of God.

We can "not be in faith" in any aspect of the Lord's finished work. Like peace - we can not be experiencing peace in a situation even though Jesus said He leaves us His peace. We don't believe we have this peace because the circumstance is screaming at us something totally different.

Therefor we are not partaking of His life that is available to us. His peace which is supposed to bring us life is not being manifested in us.

We are not experiencing the salvation of that peace in our lives. Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe, to preserve. There is no talk in the NT about losing one's salvation nor of a once saved always saved talking. They always talk about "life" and the believing of Christ and what he has done brings us His life which means that His life brings us salvation in every area - if we believe.

He that has the Son has eternal life but it is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises that come with this "life" that is in Him only.

This is why falling from grace nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives - we are depending on ourselves which is what all works-based mindsets are doing.

This is why we need to preach the love and grace of God shown in Christ's finished work so that we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him and experience this salvation and life that is ours in Christ while we are on this earth.

Amen. This is a great place for me to stop and say 'good night'. I sense a good spirit at this point in the discussion. I am glad that you have brought things back to center. This is the kind of discussion that helps and sharpens and pleases our Heavenly Father. God bless you and good night.

 

[PeterJens]

OSAS - this is not in scripture because it is simply an invention to appease people
who have not seen Christ.

We want people to join the club. So buy the ticket, follow this road and you are safe.
That is the definition of religion, false security.

Our security is in one thing alone, we know Christ and His crucified.

Our whole spiritual, emotional, motivational being is centred on this reality.

Now once you build your security of theology, head knowledge with a closed heart,
there is no formula to break in by ideas into who you are, so in the turmoil to justify
the promises, you are saved forever because you believed.

But in truth, you are saved because you know Christ and he has transformed you,
because you walk with an open heart.

Having an open heart is about opening up, and letting the truth within out.
It is about feeling the feelings that rage within and bringing them to Christ, and
discovering they are just feelings.

I spent my childhood not believing I could be loved. I felt betrayed and empty.
Though as a believer I knew God loved me, it was more words than deep reality.
But now I know I am loved, not just by Christ but by his body, the people of the
Kingdom. I know I need to be loved, and needed, and to give and need others.

When you are in the vine, with life flowing through you, you do not wonder am
I alive. You only wonder this if you have closed down, stopped listening and just
started living on automatic pilot. This is not what Christ meant, or what it means
to be with people or walking in the Spirit.

 

[FranC]

Sure, for a minute I thought you were saying that unbelievers can experience the Holy Spirit.

.
Of whom are you speaking??
Eternally-grateful IS saying this.
He's saying that a non-believer can experience and be a PARTAKER of the Holy Spirit.

Fran

 

[FranC]

OSAS - this is not in scripture because it is simply an invention to appease people
who have not seen Christ.

We want people to join the club. So buy the ticket, follow this road and you are safe.
That is the definition of religion, false security.

Our security is in one thing alone, we know Christ and His crucified.

Our whole spiritual, emotional, motivational being is centred on this reality.

Now once you build your security of theology, head knowledge with a closed heart,
there is no formula to break in by ideas into who you are, so in the turmoil to justify
the promises, you are saved forever because you believed.

But in truth, you are saved because you know Christ and he has transformed you,
because you walk with an open heart.

Having an open heart is about opening up, and letting the truth within out.
It is about feeling the feelings that rage within and bringing them to Christ, and
discovering they are just feelings.

I spent my childhood not believing I could be loved. I felt betrayed and empty.
Though as a believer I knew God loved me, it was more words than deep reality.
But now I know I am loved, not just by Christ but by his body, the people of the
Kingdom. I know I need to be loved, and needed, and to give and need others.

When you are in the vine, with life flowing through you, you do not wonder am
I alive. You only wonder this if you have closed down, stopped listening and just
started living on automatic pilot. This is not what Christ meant, or what it means
to be with people or walking in the Spirit.

Amen. What a great post!

Fran

 

[FranC]

Personally I think the whole discussion on once saved always saved and people that lose salvation is something that is never talked about in the New Testament scriptures.

The scriptures and the Lord Jesus always talked about "life". God's quality of life. Sin is anything that is not participating in of the quality of God's life - coming short of the glory which is goodness of God.

We can "not be in faith" in any aspect of the Lord's finished work. Like peace - we can not be experiencing peace in a situation even though Jesus said He leaves us His peace. We don't believe we have this peace because the circumstance is screaming at us something totally different.

Therefor we are not partaking of His life that is available to us. His peace which is supposed to bring us life is not being manifested in us.

We are not experiencing the salvation of that peace in our lives. Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe, to preserve. There is no talk in the NT about losing one's salvation nor of a once saved always saved talking. They always talk about "life" and the believing of Christ and what he has done brings us His life which means that His life brings us salvation in every area - if we believe.

He that has the Son has eternal life but it is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises that come with this "life" that is in Him only.

This is why falling from grace nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives - we are depending on ourselves which is what all works-based mindsets are doing.

This is why we need to preach the love and grace of God shown in Christ's finished work so that we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him and experience this salvation and life that is ours in Christ while we are on this earth.

Hi Grace777
How could I "like" your statement if we don't agree on eternal security?

Because everything you've said is correct...

1. It's not talked about in scripture because the writer's took it for granted that it would be understood that this Life you speak of is IN JESUS and believers ARE in Jesus and so they are safe. But what about those that are NOT in Jesus? Those who fall away are NOT in Jesus.

2. If I fall away and begin to sin without regard to God or repentance for same, how am I participating in God's quality of life? it seems to me that if I decide to abandon God, I have also decided not to participate in the Life of His.

3. If we are not "in faith" we are not "participating". If we are not participating, how are we saved??

4. Listen to what you said:

" Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe, to preserve. There is no talk in the NT about losing one's salvation nor of a once saved always saved talking. They always talk about "life" and the believing of Christ and what he has done brings us His life which means that His life brings us salvation in every area - if we believe. "

Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe. Perfect! How are we safe if we abandon the protecting arms of Jesus?
You said yourself that his life brings us salvation in every area- IF WE BELIEVE.
What if we STOP believing??

5. You said that he who has the Son has eternal life. Does one who falls away have the son??

6. Falling from grace, nullifies the grace.
I'd say that one who abandons God IS falling from grace.

Your last paragraph is right on and we absolutely have to rely on God's grace and it IS extremely difficult for one to abandon God once he has tasted of the goodness and mercy of the Lord; however, we cannot exclude the possibility, no matter how remote.

Fran

 

[dcontroversal]

.
Of whom are you speaking??
Eternally-grateful IS saying this.
He's saying that a non-believer can experience and be a PARTAKER of the Holy Spirit.

Fran

What post did he say or imply that in.....quote it and post it!

 

[PeterJens]

This is why falling from grace nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives - we are depending on ourselves which is what all works-based mindsets are doing.

This needs translating, though I might be wrong this is how I understand this
proposition.

A belief in "falling from grace is possible" means you are not saved by destroying
the grace working in your life.

This group call this "unbelief" and hold it is the only unforgivable sin left because all
sin is now forgiven after the cross past, present and future.

What is confusing is in their language they hide their real beliefs about morality, sin,
repentance and confession because they believe the religious mindset cannot cope
with their version, claiming the church has corrupted this from the beginning.

So I could trust Christ for salvation, be redeemed, born again, walking in the Spirit
and obedience to Christ, yet if I do not believe I am secure eternally, I am in unbelief
earning my salvation and so lost.

It is saying salvation is without conditions only faith, but if I put the condition of
"no unbelief" onto the salvation, that is ok.

Personally I do not like this spiritual dishonesty or way of putting their beliefs to
appear one way, but actually be believing in a totally different manner.

And if I point this reality out, I am the evil person, with malice, hatred and bitterness.
And this is their only answer, when challenged, because they all appear to be
totally compromised individuals, who hold to this doctrinal position out of deep wounds
from the legalism of their past. They are not what they appear to be.

And the real evil in the world, is legalism, which is projected on to everyone not like
themselves.

 

[OneFaith]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

The whole point of the parable of the prodigal son is to show us that we can leave the father and go back to the world. And when he did come back, what did the father say to the other son? Your brother was dead, and is now alive.

Those to whom Christ said "Depart from Me." once professed their faith, but it did not save them in the end because they didn't obey God's laws.

Those who left God and His doctrine to follow falsehood, after knowing the truth, can never return because that is like crucifying Christ all over again- like you said. They were once saved but are saved no longer. Like God said, those who remain faithful UNTIL the end will be saved.

Its like if you got into Noah's ark, you were saved. But if you got back out, then back in- you removed yourself from a safe state. But what really determines it is if you are in the ark when the flood comes (the end of your life). If the flood comes, and you are not in the ark, and you say, "But I was once in the ark in my lifetime" it matters not. You not only have to get saved, you have to stay saved. And for one to say well then they were never truly saved to begin with is like saying they were never in the ark to begin with- that's rediculous.

The Bible says those who leave once knowing the truth and knowing God cannot come back because that is like crucifying Christ all over AGAIN- indicates that Christ was already crucified in their case- they were already once saved, yet are no longer.

 

[garee]

I have yet to hear one person who claims they can lose salvation. Admit they lost it. so I see DCs frustration.

now this is kind of odd.. Why is this

?

They are the other group that crucifies Christ over and over every time they fall from grace as if one work of His faith as a labor of His love was not enough to appease the wrath the father poured out on Christ .The same one that offer dead works of the law, as faith towards God and not a faith coming from Him..

Better things accompany salvation like redemption.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace777
How could I "like" your statement if we don't agree on eternal security?

Because everything you've said is correct...

1. It's not talked about in scripture because the writer's took it for granted that it would be understood that this Life you speak of is IN JESUS and believers ARE in Jesus and so they are safe. But what about those that are NOT in Jesus? Those who fall away are NOT in Jesus.

2. If I fall away and begin to sin without regard to God or repentance for same, how am I participating in God's quality of life? it seems to me that if I decide to abandon God, I have also decided not to participate in the Life of His.

3. If we are not "in faith" we are not "participating". If we are not participating, how are we saved??

4. Listen to what you said:

" Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe, to preserve. There is no talk in the NT about losing one's salvation nor of a once saved always saved talking. They always talk about "life" and the believing of Christ and what he has done brings us His life which means that His life brings us salvation in every area - if we believe. "

Salvation means to be rescued, to keep safe. Perfect! How are we safe if we abandon the protecting arms of Jesus?
You said yourself that his life brings us salvation in every area- IF WE BELIEVE.
What if we STOP believing??

5. You said that he who has the Son has eternal life. Does one who falls away have the son??

6. Falling from grace, nullifies the grace.
I'd say that one who abandons God IS falling from grace.

Your last paragraph is right on and we absolutely have to rely on God's grace and it IS extremely difficult for one to abandon God once he has tasted of the goodness and mercy of the Lord; however, we cannot exclude the possibility, no matter how remote.

Fran

If that were the case - that if we fall from faith in believing in an aspect of what God has for us in His life - all of us on this planet would never be with the Lord and we will go to hell.

1) How does one get unseparated from Christ? Does Jesus leave our spirit where we are joined as one spirit with Him even though He said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever and that He would never leave us nor forsake us? Is Jesus lying here? Does Jesus have "fine print" somewhere?..if so...He is pretty deceptive. I choose to believe in His integrity myself.

2) Of course you wouldn't be participating in God's quality of life - neither are we when we have outbursts of anger or malice - if we died after an outbursts of anger which we have been prone to do for decades - do we go to hell now? Of course not - it is complete foolishness and yet it is in the same list as living a homosexual lifestyle.

3) Exactly..if we are not participating in God's quality of life we are not being saved from whatever is affecting us - including peace, joy..etc. Unfortunately you view the term "saved" to mean either going to hell or heaven. it is not involved in it at all now that we are in Christ. Our citizenship is in heaven when we come to Christ. It is all about "life". The more we see what Christ has done - the more we can participate in His life on this earth.

4) What if you stop believing that peace is yours in Christ - then you die - do you go to hell for that?

5) Again your definition of falling away causes you to always see hell and separation from God. How does one NOT have the Son when He is joined to us in one spirit?

What is the mechanism that Jesus leaves us? ( despite the fact He said He never would - let's just say He was not telling us the whole truth but had some fine print somewhere - kind of like the "bait and switch" car salesmen do ).

Right now we have been created in righteousness and holiness in our new creation - created by incorruptible seed Peter says. So, all of a sudden this incorruptible seed is now able to be corrupted? Some kind of sin is greater than the blood of Jesus which cleanses us? Sin is greater than the righteousness of God that is in our new creation in Christ?

6) Falling from grace is defined in Galatians - it is trying to do things in your own flesh. We all do that to some degree or other. If that sent people to hell - then we are all there too.


I personally believe this doctrine of losing one's salvation has done more harm to the body of Christ other than the perversion of the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ. It creates a false gospel of works-based mindsets which try to dominate people's hearts by fear and intimidation. It is the complete opposite of the life of God being expressed.

I have a medical background and I have heard from a few psychiatrists that a lot of people with mental issues and in the asylums are Christians that have this fear that they been forsaken by God and have blasphemed God or the Holy Spirit and now are doomed. This belief comes from this false doctrine of losing salvation as in being with the Lord when we die.

Yes there are many warnings about not living in faith of what Christ has done for us and we can get distracted from the simplicity that is in Christ. What happens is people are equating not being in faith in an area to mean that those in Christ are going to hell now. That is very serious error IMO.

So, yes..let's preach and teach the love and grace of God in Christ so that we can grow up in Him and not be ship-wrecked in this life and not participate in God's quality of life that He came to give us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with the idea of positional perfection (the Father seeing us through the blood of the Son), the Scripture does state that there may be a point of no return, and I do believe that despising one's salvation is despising the atonement that Jesus accomplished for us at Calvary. One who has not received Christ or who has despised his salvation has gone back to being under the Law, by default, and the Law will be the thing that damns his soul on Judgement Day.

my point is why did they go back?

Because they never trusted christ to begin with?

or because they had full hope in christ, recieved his goodness, His grace and felt his love, saw what happened when they followed christ, and this helped them to realise how sinful they were even more, and how the old world had nothign to offer them, That what God has been saying all along is proven every time they investigate.

Then one day so nope. I changed my mind, I repent back to my old self. it was all a lie..

sorry, I can not fathom the second answer every happening, No one who experienced christ fully in salvation and walking with him would go back to what they were rescued from, Unless they never trusted Christ to begin with, thus for that reason, never fully experienced his love.. .