Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

[Stunnedbygrace]

Isa 45:6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You 2 don't know what you are arguing about. God is God and everything else falls short of being God/perfect and for this reason:

God is Holy/good- means everything else experiences increases in evil
God is light- means everything else is in the dark and the more it is dark, the brighter God is comparatively.
And the list goes on and on but because God loves man, He wants man to shift from darkness to His side so that they are one (perfect/eternal/good/wise). So, man will be one with God- being in God and God in them. means that man will be God.

Well...imagine that PB...we spent all day discussing, while not having any idea what we were discussing! Sometimes you just have to laugh!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

To me: If I give permission, the right to do something, my approval, my consent, to someone to do something and that "something" is evil or hurtful to someone else - then I, by giving my authority, am just as guilty as the one who "caused" the suffering. . . If I permit, authorize someone to steal . . . then I have to hold myself responsible or accountable for that action. I had a part in it because I authorized it. If my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it - then I am responsible for his/her pain and suffering. I don't know if I am expressing what I am trying to correctly!!! Maybe I have a weird way of looking at things!!!

In going back through the thread to give likes and reps because I wanted to first only focus on our discussion, I missed something interesting in this post!

If your child wants to touch a hot stove and you allow it (as in you say, okay, go ahead) then you are responsible for the child getting hurt - I agree.

But what if you tell the child not to touch it or they will be badly hurt and they do it anyway when you're not looking? Because this is more in line with what happened in the garden. And the consequences flowed from it.

Because God made them to bring forth of their own kind, when they didn't listen to His warning that they would die, and they ate, they then could only bring forth the dead, because their "kind" was then dead. So the consequence (death) spread to their offspring. So like mephibosheth stated, I deserved only death because of whose child I was.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

[/SIZE]Yes, God is indeed in control of everything, and at the same time He is not the first Cause of evil.

Christians cannot deny that God holds the entire universe in His hands, and is even aware of every sparrow which falls to the ground. That is what Christ told us. Therefore He is in full control of His universe at all time, and fully aware of every creature, and every thought and intent of the heart.

Having said that, GOD ALLOWS SIN AND EVIL TO EXIST in His universe. But it will only be for "a season". Since a thousand years are merely one day in the sight of God, He has allowed sin and evil for about six days (out of all eternity which is endless). There will come a day when Satan and his evil angels are in Hell, and there is a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. God has said: "Behold, I make all things new".

I like this post and I agree with it!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

By using this line of thinking, god is responsible for hitler and the millions of people who died at his hand,

i just can not think this way,

God allowed hitler for whatever reason, but he is not responsible for what hitler did.

As the bible says, god is patient willing that non should perish, imagine if he removed all evil and made our lives all perfect, who would seek God?

And again we have the free will issue.

Good post, butthead!
Believe it or not, I really want to have the freewill discussion if it can be as calmly and patiently and kindly discussed as the discussion went today in here because I think more understanding of what "each other" are saying and meaning can be had!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree with Eternally Grateful, that in order to permit freedom of choice, evil will just be one of the choices because of the nature of man.

But there is another aspect. Could it be possible that God allows evil (sickness, harm, etc.) to exist simply to have a foundation on which to reveal Himself as Healer, Restorer, Deliverer, Savior and especially Comforter? Without the effects of evil, we would not know or experience God so completely.

It's an interesting thought. I had to tax my brain quite hard over it. I'm not sure I can see it though. God allows evil to exist and continue because without the awfulness of evil, His extreme goodness could not really be clearly and vividly seen...? To me, that means when evil is out of the picture, God would be less clearly seen in eternity rather than more clearly seen?

You presented it as a perhaps. And I'm glad you presented the perhaps. No one should rail at you for discussing and sharing a thought. But when you think more about it, I think it has to be discarded. It can't be that evil makes the goodness of God more visible...can it?

 

[Bladerunner]

To me: If I give permission, the right to do something, my approval, my consent, to someone to do something and that "something" is evil or hurtful to someone else - then I, by giving my authority, am just as guilty as the one who "caused" the suffering. . . If I permit, authorize someone to steal . . . then I have to hold myself responsible or accountable for that action. I had a part in it because I authorized it. If my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it - then I am responsible for his/her pain and suffering. I don't know if I am expressing what I am trying to correctly!!! Maybe I have a weird way of looking at things!!![/QUOTE



speaking of yourself being a parent and comparing that to GOD, well is in dangerous territory. You are in charge of your daughter...It is your responsibility to take care of her... Is its God's responsibility to take care of you?

If you are truly saved, you will receive the Holy Spirit and He will teach, guide and protect you. Is that not enough?

As to the other Question...Yes, God is in control! Since HE knows everything that will happen, every thought that will come about, and every action by the FREE WILL of Man from eternity past; should he stop it if it has in HIS eyes already happened? Why should he save man from himself... He has already given all mankind a way to avoid all these evils has He not?

One other point.... Man uses Satan as a way to sidestep his responsibility for evil performed. During the Millennium, Satan is chained in a deep pit where He can influence not one person. Yet, we see many people simply abiding their time and at the end of the millennium choose to side with Satan when He is released from the pit.

 

[soberxp]

I feel this way before, if something wrong in my heart and not right in mind ,Then evil will take the place of justice around me(such as ,Surfing the Internet, turning on the news, it's all bad news.), It seems to be that when you feel evil around you.Whether you will join evil, Or seek the righteousness of god. This power makes me uncomfortable, My feeling is, my heart, in my mind, should not have a filth of evil thoughts. then when I change my mind into the righteousness of god and everything will be good way. what I mean that It's all in god's control.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would also say if evil was allowed to go untethered. We would have most likely destroyed our planted many years ago,

that will happen in the end, when jesus removed the spirit which restrains, and allowes evil to go unchcked. The world will fall to utter chaos, and he will be forced to return for the sake of the elect because if he did not, no flesh would survive.

I agree about the untethered thought. He had to and has to put limits on destructive forces.
This far may your proud waves come, and they may go no further. That's what He said to the ocean, forget which book it's in. Maybe Job.
It sounds like He is in complete control of just how far everything may go in His creation, including His created beings.

 

[Bladerunner]

Good post, butthead!
Believe it or not, I really want to have the freewill discussion if it can be as calmly and patiently and kindly discussed as the discussion went today in here because I think more understanding of what "each other" are saying and meaning can be had!

Have we digressed so far as to start calling people on the thread names? Everybody has an opinion. Please respect that...as we will try to respect your post.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A short while ago, the mayor may have 'stood down' the rioterrs (allowed them to riot by watching, when he could have had the police stop them) but he did not cause the riots.

A great example, and very relevant to the discussion. I think we've laid out the difference very well in this thread between permitting versus causing.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is exactly what the book of Job reveals. Satan had to ask God's permission. Which means that God allows Satan and his evil angels as much latitude as He allows, but they are totally in His hands. Should God chose, He could cast them all into the Lake of Fire tomorrow. They are merely creatures.

We should always bear in mind that it was God's decision to create men and angels with free will. And one consequence of free will was disobedience, which is sin. Therefore God also made full provision for the sins of men in and through Christ, who was the Lamb of God slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world. God and Christ saw His finished work of redemption even before Adam was created.

​

And this is a most excellent post.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Hmm...maybe it is just my perception of what you meant that has changed...or maybe you aren't fully aware that your mind has been somewhat changed on it...or maybe you still have the exact same mind on it but are using much different words to get your point across...or maybe its a little of all three.

You just said God gives permission for the evil to be done whereas before, I perceived you to be saying that you had a problem with the God giving permission thing. You considered that Job could be allegory because it just didn't sit quite right with you that satan had to ask permission and God had to permit it and lay out the limits...and I didn't get a real grasp on what you thought of the second instance I brought up about satan asking permission to sift peter like wheat but I didn't get the impression that you thought that was allegory too but just that you had no idea what to really do with it or how to fit it in.

You know, you never stated that you felt God was being blamed in an indirect manner...I would have definitely asked you to explain how so I could maybe have seen what you were seeing! You may have been thinking it, but you actually never stated it. I have often felt that others had something a little bit twisted up but not that they were literally trying to twist it up but that they didn't realize one of their thoughts warred with another of their thoughts. I have a small knack for seeing where thoughts aren't matching or are contradicting one another and can lay it out logically, but I don't see it so easily when it is my own mind that has a wrinkle like that. But it helps to know that when you were saying others were saying God does evil, you didn't mean it literally but felt they were indirectly saying it somehow.

Let me ask you . . . throughout scripture there is a battle going on - a spiritual battle, a battle between good and evil; light and darkness; - what kind of battle is it when your opponent has to ask permission to attack?

I see your third paragraph relating to what you said earlier, that satans accusation was God heavily protected Job but let something that was unpleasant or hard come and watch if he still accepted it and didn't complain. But Job didn't. He accepted the things that were unpleasant and hard and said he accepted the pleasant and accepted the hard too and didn't sin with his lips. Shall we receive good/pleasant from His hand and not accept evil/hard/distasteful from His hands? And it says Job did not sin by saying it.

I know Job didn't so Satan's little scheme failed. . . . "Shall we receive good/pleasant from His hand and not accept evil/hard/distasteful from His hands? And it says Job did not sin by saying it." I believe I quoted that in Paragraph 2 of Post #49.

You have a problem with satan needing to ask permission (as with Job and Peter) and with God giving it while carefully placing limits, but you don't have a problem with the thought that God has already given permission if He allows evil to buffet anyone by not putting an end to it immediately but instead somewhere in the future? Did I get that right? In your next paragraph, I can agree that Job knew pretty well what he had been taught about God but not that he knew God well because in the end he says, before I'd only heard about You but now I've met You!

I believe the relevance of this story with Job is NOT about Satan asking permission . . . That is not the highlight - I have touched on what I believe to be the relevance of Job - We love God not because of what we have or what he can give us but we love him no matter what the circumstances. Evil can strike anyone because it rains on the just and the unjust. No need to ask permission of your opponent in a war - you strike.

What I hear is - Satan had to ask permission with Job and Peter so he has to ask permission to act in anybody and everybody's life . . . . The spiritual battle began in Genesis 3:15 and won't end until Satan is thrown into the fiery pit.

You're last paragraph - did satan have to ask permission for what Josephs brothers did to him is an interesting question. Satan didn't directly attack Joseph as with Job, where it was satan himself who brought the whirlwind that collapsed houses, and I do believe he needed permission for that because satan doesn't control the weather - God does. (Unless He gives permission for satan to bring a whirlwind, I don't believe satan is allowed to bring one...but God gave permission - do what you want, only don't touch Job with whatever you do). But it was flesh and blood men who did evil to Joseph so...no, I'm guessing satan didn't need permission. Just a guess there though. It only states him asking permission in two places in the bible that I know of, Job and Peter.

All good thoughts, PB. Hard stuff, but intriguing too, you know?

So Satan only has to ask permission when he "directly attacks"? The other evils Satan can just "do" . . . "it was flesh and blood men who did evil to Joseph" . . . for our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms . . . wouldn't that have been true for Joseph as it is for us even though it wasn't revealed until the church epistles? Evil men do evil things because they are of their father, the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning . . .

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Satan is the god of this world, the ruler of the darkness of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And yet, the gospel goes out and Gods word does not return to Him empty but lights men and gives the blind their sight. If satan had his way, that would never happen to a single man to have his blindness healed, but the darkness cannot overcome the light. That's worthy of praise man!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If God judges evil in this world, will He not have to judge us? If He were to stop all evil presently in this Earth, would we not have to cease to exist? We make a distinction between us and the evil in the world, yet we ourselves sin. I think people forget that Jesus Christ is the solution to evil in this world, and in due time, in the Lord's timing, will it all come to an end and a new beginning. I do not suggest double jeopardy, as Christ will not again go to the cross.

It continues because God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish. Do not forget that we were once a part of the problem, but now, are we the children of light, the children of God. We are the righteous, in Christ Jesus.

I've run across you twice in two days, what a treat!!

No, no, no to your first two sentences though! Think that through some more.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Good analogy

I thought it was very apt also.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A. I want to thank PeacefulBeliever and StunnedbyGrace for trying to address a difficult topic in a polite and respectful way.


B. First of all, we're mixing at least 3 different arguments:
1. Theodicy: where does evil actually come from; what is the first cause, and who is the responsible party.
2. Sovereignty: just precisely, to what degree, is God in control of his creation
3. Problem of Evil: not necessarily HOW evil got into the world, but rather WHY God continues to allow it in our lives.

We'd do well to separate them for analysis, rather than mashing them all up together.

When we mash different things all up together, it just makes everything confusing.


C. These issues are very old issues, and have been discussed for centuries; some are easily answered, and some are a bit more mysterious.

We DO need to address them, but we shouldn't be surprised to find some disagreement.


D. The "10 problems" listed above, are really not 10 problems.

There are 2-3 problems, and all the other points are just conclusions built upon those.


E. This post contains 2-3 common, and understandable, logic errors (such as category mistakes), and all the points in the list are just layers of conclusions built upon these small but important errors.

It looks like a long list to debate, but it's not; it really boils down to only a couple of problem spots.


F. This particular debate about evil isn't really such a confusing problem philosophically or theologically... it's really more of an emotional issue.

Most of these things can all be sorted, pretty easily, with the Bible and with logic... but it's not so easily sorted within our own emotions. The whole problem of evil just upsets us humans, and it all seems horrible and unfair, and we have a total melt-down trying to decide who to blame.

It's a hard problem emotionally. But if we remove our emotions, it's not so difficult as a logic problem.


G. Everyone seems to be making a lot of good points, so I'll just add my two cents to the thread, and check back later.

I don't know about anyone else, but this was very helpful to me.

 

[Magenta]

In going back through the thread to give likes and reps because I wanted to first only focus on our discussion, I missed something interesting in this post!

If your child wants to touch a hot stove and you allow it (as in you say, okay, go ahead) then you are responsible for the child getting hurt - I agree.

But what if you tell the child not to touch it or they will be badly hurt and they do it anyway when you're not looking? Because this is more in line with what happened in the garden. And the consequences flowed from it.

Because God made them to bring forth of their own kind, when they didn't listen to His warning that they would die, and they ate, they then could only bring forth the dead, because their "kind" was then dead. So the consequence (death) spread to their offspring. So like mephibosheth stated, I deserved only death because of whose child I was.

Are you suggesting that God did not know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit? I am trying to understand your saying it is like you don't see your child doing something you told them not to. Because God not only knew they were going to, but had a plan in place for that very eventuality.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

At 198, 2 points are most likely any ways, unless the person was at a hundred count plus one.

Aaah...so with rep points of 0-100, you give out one point, with 100-200 you give out 2, and so on. Now I understand. And you would give...7? And then if someone gives you a negative rep, it deducts the amount?

I occasionally run across someone who makes very good posts but doesn't have much rep power...but mostly, I don'tremember to pay attention to the points thing. Too busy talking!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Have we digressed so far as to start calling people on the thread names? Everybody has an opinion. Please respect that...as we will try to respect your post.

I know EG quite well and we joke around a lot. I was joking. Sorry for the confusion. There was no way you could have known I was joking.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In going back through the thread to give likes and reps because I wanted to first only focus on our discussion, I missed something interesting in this post!

If your child wants to touch a hot stove and you allow it (as in you say, okay, go ahead) then you are responsible for the child getting hurt - I agree.

The words I used - If my child asked permission to touch a hot stove . . . .

But what if you tell the child not to touch it or they will be badly hurt and they do it anyway when you're not looking? Because this is more in line with what happened in the garden. And the consequences flowed from it.

Because God made them to bring forth of their own kind, when they didn't listen to His warning that they would die, and they ate, they then could only bring forth the dead, because their "kind" was then dead. So the consequence (death) spread to their offspring. So like mephibosheth stated, I deserved only death because of whose child I was.

If my child goes ahead and touches it when I am not looking - it's called an accident or it could be plain ole disobedience and he/she paid the consequences of their disobedience.

God made them to bring forth of their own kind . . . I don't really understand that statement. God didn't make Adam disobey - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

The way I comprehend this statement of Mephibosheth: All my grandfather's descendants deserved nothing but death from my lord the king, but you gave your servant a place among those who eat at your table. So what right do I have to make any more appeals to the king? . . . has to do with Saul killing the priest of the LORD and wanting to kill David, that's why his descendants deserved nothing but death and surely not the right to eat at King David's table.