How about 1st century historians.... do they list the year or date the crucifixion took place? Maybe Justin Martyr, or Josephus?
I need to study more....
Good Thursday?
- Thread starter hornetguy
- Start date
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How about 1st century historians.... do they list the year or date the crucifixion took place? Maybe Justin Martyr, or Josephus?
I need to study more....
Actually, I think this has been one of the more civil discussions I've seen here in the BD forum... nobody's been arguing... everyone is stating what they think, what their opinion is... it's quite refreshing... I appreciate the way everyone has responded.
I'm actually learning stuff.... imagine that. At my advanced age....
Wednesday crucifixion gives us three days and nights, though, and nobody knows the exact time of resurrection, only that while it was still dark (night time) the women found the tomb empty. We call it Sunday morning but the darkness is night time. Wednesday evening burial, Wednesday night in ground. One night. Thursday all day in tomb, plus Thursday night. That is one day and two nights so far. Friday during the day, then Friday night, gives us two days and three nights. All day Saturday in the tomb equals three days and three nights. Jesus was already risen by the time the women arrived before sunrise of the fourth day. No amount of computation distortions give three days and nights from a Friday crucifixion.
I still don't see any evidence of that. I think that Sabbaths happened whenever they happened. I don't think the Jewish leaders "let" them happen....
When your celebrations are set by equinoxes and such, you pretty much take what you get.
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The Importance Of Correctly Sequencing The Events
Q: Well so what if the outside world is laughing at Good Friday just so long
as Catholics believe in it?
A: Irrational portrayals of Easter week contribute not just to the mockery of
Catholics, but of all Christians the world over; and worse: the losing of
people's souls in hell; here's why.
● Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather
than the other
No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.
The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to
regard as innocent.
In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive
him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one legally do that
without initiating a miscarriage of justice when there is evidence enough to
indict?
Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification
(Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to
obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to
make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal.
● 1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still
in your sins.
An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of
innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad.
On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from the divine perspective it's
all on the up and up.
It's not too difficult to appreciate just how serious this is relative to the
outside world. If they can be persuaded to mock the sequence of events
during Easter week, they can just as easily be persuaded that Jesus'
resurrection never happened; viz: they will miss the opportunity to get their
records expunged and thus be exonerated. A record of their sins will remain
on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out
ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those
books will be opened for review.
● Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into the whole world and proclaim
the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be
spared; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
/
The Importance Of Correctly Sequencing The Events
Q: Well so what if the outside world is laughing at Good Friday just so long
as Catholics believe in it?
A: Irrational portrayals of Easter week contribute not just to the mockery of
Catholics, but of all Christians the world over; and worse: the losing of
people's souls in hell; here's why.
● Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather
than the other
No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.
The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to
regard as innocent.
In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive
him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one legally do that
without initiating a miscarriage of justice when there is evidence enough to
indict?
Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification
(Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to
obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to
make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal.
● 1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still
in your sins.
An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of
innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad.
On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from the divine perspective it's
all on the up and up.
It's not too difficult to appreciate just how serious this is relative to the
outside world. If they can be persuaded to mock the sequence of events
during Easter week, they can just as easily be persuaded that Jesus'
resurrection never happened; viz: they will miss the opportunity to get their
records expunged and thus be exonerated. A record of their sins will remain
on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out
ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those
books will be opened for review.
● Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into the whole world and proclaim
the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be
spared; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
/
I am learning also
For instance, I sort of assumed that Passover was a Sabbath but have just learned it was the Day or Feast of Unleavened Bread which was the second Sabbath day that week. Thank you for starting this thread!
No, I haven't had time to check out your link... I will do that when I get home from work...
I was leaning toward a Thursday crucifixion, but the women buying spices on Friday sorta throws a wrench into that.... the Wednesday idea seems to have too many nights in it, but I'm still trying to work it all out in my head...
I need a flannel board! I haven't seen one of those in years....
It is a poser, ain't it?
But don't assume Saturday night is included! Wednesday Night
Thursday Night
Friday Night
Three nights
Thursday day
Friday day
Saturday day
Three days and three nights.
Jesus resurrects.
Nobody knows until Sunday morning.
Where was Jesus all Saturday night?
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6
This could be what happened because they did eat a meal that was the same as the passover meal. Here's something of interest, "Reform Jews holding two Seders (on the evening of the 15th and 16th of Nisan)", could it be that these Reform Jews received this tradition from the elders of the people that brought Jesus to Pilate? What I find interesting is Jesus was prepared for His sacrifice. Could it be possible that these elders of the people, either two passover meals, remember they were following tradition not the Law as it was given.
Wiki for the two meals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder
it would not shake my faith one iota if it was one day or the other...the fact is Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again...that is all we need to know...the rest is intellectualization.
just wondering how it gets you an iota closer to God
The discussion, in and of itself doesn't.... I stated that at the beginning...
But I feel that any discussion of ideas about the life and death of our Savior has merit... this has been an enlightening time for me....
I don't care about y'all..... LOL..... Just kidding... like I said, discussing Jesus is never "time wasted"....
Yet we are exhorted to search out the answers in Scripture,
to ascertain for ourselves, the truth contained therein
How can we meditate upon the truth if we know it not?
Meditation means “the act of focusing one’s thoughts: to ponder, think on, muse.” Meditation consists of reflective thinking or contemplation, usually on a specific subject to discern its meaning or significance or a plan of action.Meditation means “the act of focusing one’s thoughts: to ponder, think on, muse.” Meditation consists of reflective thinking or contemplation, usually on a specific subject to discern its meaning or significance or a plan of action. https://bible.org/article/biblical-meditation
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Well i don't come to argue so in my view i am steeped in meditation always and that is to have personal intimate relationship with God in the Spirit, that is where my prayer lies...therefore if people want to pay more attention to the historical Jesus rather than the risen Christ...so be it but i am just saying that it keeps people in words and knowledge which doesn't lead to a new creation as Paul said...I might just add that the only time in scripture that Jesus got annoyed was with the pharisees who knew the words inside out far more than anyone today and yet Jesus pointed out they didn't know God...that is simply what i stated in my thread.Yet we are exhorted to search out the answers in Scripture,
to ascertain for ourselves, the truth contained therein
How can we meditate upon the truth if we know it not?
Meditation means “the act of focusing one’s thoughts: to ponder, think on, muse.” Meditation consists of reflective thinking or contemplation, usually on a specific subject to discern its meaning or significance or a plan of action.Meditation means “the act of focusing one’s thoughts: to ponder, think on, muse.” Meditation consists of reflective thinking or contemplation, usually on a specific subject to discern its meaning or significance or a plan of action. https://bible.org/article/biblical-meditation
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
We can have an idea here are the four accounts. Mark 16:2-3 “Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?”
Matthew 28:1-2 “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.”
John 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb."
Luke 24:1-3 “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.”
From these four accounts we can conclude that it was "very early in the morning" when it was "still dark" "as the first day of the week began to dawn" they were the first to get to the Tomb. Mark doesn't say who they were that came to the Tomb, but they came later "when the sun had risen". Since the Jewish 24 hour period starts at 6pm evening and night, morning and mid-day start at 6am so by 6am the Tomb was empty, Matthew seems to be saying that as they were getting there an angel of the Lord roll back the stone revealing that the Tomb was empty, He had already risen. I'm thinking the Holy Spirit is emphasizing this time of 6am to let us know that was when He rose just before the stone was rolled away. Which with the idea of the recording I posted, Jesus being arrested around mid-night, but being handed over to Pilate at 6am the beginning of His "heart of the earth" that would make 72 hours or three days and three night. I was a big believer in the Wednesday idea, but with a 6am rising of the Lord it added 12 hours to the 72 so I struggled with that idea, after hearing the recording from amazing facts, it makes the most sense. With the body being prepared and placed in the Tomb before 6pm, that would mean that the resurrection would need to be around 6pm for it to be 72 hours.
Look at what Jonah's says 2:2b "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction" His affliction is how Jonah's describes his state in the belly of the great fish. Isaiah 53:4, 7a "Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted......He was oppressed and He was afflicted," Is how Isaiah describes what happens to Jesus in His being punished for our sins and put to death, read the chapter of Isaiah 53, the punishment for our sins He was bruised, chastised, wounded, whipped, beaten and stricken which happened while with Pilate. If grave means, belly of the earth, it's not the Tomb. Isaiah 53:9a "And they made His grave with the wicked—but with the rich at His death," the Tomb was His death, He was buried in a rich man Tomb, but His grave was with the wicked, those that tormented and crucified Him, which I never noticed before. All speculation while interesting and I like doing this, that's the best interpretation of the belly of the earth. As I research more maybe more will be revealed to me.
Well, we are having a lovely discussion, and still some people complain about it, and make all manner of not so nice inferences, and in general disturb the peace that has been here. It is as if you find discussing the Bible abhorrent in a Bible Discussion forum. If that is so, why are you here? To imply we do not have your lovely personal relationship with God? If there were no historical Jesus, He would not have risen. Really, your complaints puzzle me. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Paul said that also.
ok just offering my view on things and obviously you disagree so maybe as fellow bc ites, we can agree to disagree
But what is it we are disagreeing on? I wonder which day the crucifixion took place, what were the Sabbath days that week, why was there a high holy day, how it all fits into the Jewish culture at the time of Christ is all very important in fulfilling God's timetable, feasts, and prophesies. Passover is very important, it is the crux of it all! I sort of see your point, does it really matter if it was a Wednesday or Thursday, but to accept the Friday crucifixion as promoted by Roman Catholicism seems a grave error and one we should not just blindly accept, just as we should not blindly accept all their other errors, many of them quite egregious and severely anti-Scriptural.ok just offering my view on things and obviously you disagree so maybe as fellow bc ites, we can agree to disagree
The first of God’s seven annual festivals is the Passover (Leviticus 23:5). Passover falls in early spring, and is a reminder of how God spared His people from death in Egypt. To rescue His people from slavery, God took the lives of all the firstborn Egyptian males (Exodus 12:7, 26-29) but passed over the Israelites’ homes that had the blood of a sacrificed lamb on their door frames.
The blood of the Passover lamb foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which passes over the sins of people who repent in order to spare them from eternal death. The New Testament makes clear that Christ is the true Passover Lamb (compare Exodus 12:21 with 1 Corinthians 5:7). In observing His last Passover with His disciples, Jesus explained that the symbols of bread and wine represent His body and blood, offered by Him for the forgiveness (or passing over) of our sins and the death penalty our sins have earned for us (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24).
The death of Christ actually took place during the daylight hours that followed the Passover evening—which was still the same date according to Hebrew sunset-to-sunset reckoning. Christ was sacrificed on Passover.
The New Testament Passover is a memorial of the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.
We approach this period of the year with deep spiritual introspection.
Christians who observe this annual memorial marking Jesus’ death (1 Corinthians 11:26) are reminded that eternal life is possible only through Him (John 6:47-54; Acts 4:10-12). https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/why-should-christians-celebrate-the-passover
The blood of the Passover lamb foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which passes over the sins of people who repent in order to spare them from eternal death. The New Testament makes clear that Christ is the true Passover Lamb (compare Exodus 12:21 with 1 Corinthians 5:7). In observing His last Passover with His disciples, Jesus explained that the symbols of bread and wine represent His body and blood, offered by Him for the forgiveness (or passing over) of our sins and the death penalty our sins have earned for us (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24).
The death of Christ actually took place during the daylight hours that followed the Passover evening—which was still the same date according to Hebrew sunset-to-sunset reckoning. Christ was sacrificed on Passover.
The New Testament Passover is a memorial of the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.
We approach this period of the year with deep spiritual introspection.
Christians who observe this annual memorial marking Jesus’ death (1 Corinthians 11:26) are reminded that eternal life is possible only through Him (John 6:47-54; Acts 4:10-12). https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/why-should-christians-celebrate-the-passover