You're tone deaf, aren't you? A&E were the only human beings to truly have "free will" because they were created "very good"; and therefore, were free FROM all evil influences and a sin nature, thereby having no excuse to not freely choose to trust and obey God. But this is not so with Adam's progeny. Adam's sons and daughters come into this world as spiritual stillborns, having no spiritual ability to choose contrary to their sinful nature -- to choose to become something they are not, e.g. righteous.
Gods will vs mans free will
- Thread starter jacko
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You're tone deaf, aren't you? A&E were the only human beings to truly have "free will" because they were created "very good"; and therefore, were free FROM all evil influences and a sin nature, thereby having no excuse to not freely choose to trust and obey God. But this is not so with Adam's progeny. Adam's sons and daughters come into this world as spiritual stillborns, having no spiritual ability to choose contrary to their sinful nature -- to choose to become something they are not, e.g. righteous.
Absolutely false backed up with bafflegab.
Eve was UNFALLEN when she was seduced by the lies of Satan.
Adam was UNFALLEN when he made the FREE WILL DECISION to eat from the tree of death.
Satan was created UNFALLEN then he CHOSE to rebel.
Oh I am sure that you will suffer plenty of sleepless nights now that these lectures have been posted.
I, on the other hand, will be sleeping like a baby tonight.
The inmates at the Calvinist prison now have the keys to their freedom.
So good luck trying to round up and hogtie all of the escapees who CHOOSE to escape.
@cv5 summed it up quite well. I went to a reformed church for many years. there are "word salad" differences in many but in the end...........they are ALL hyper Calvinist . Look up Johnny Piper, my old church worshiped his theology. That will give you a good idea of the Calvinist and their theology.
After reading your post I would strongly disagree with your self assesment. You don't know what Calvinism is or teaches.
You said:
So I advise you to go pick up your own manna and find out.
It could take years.
I have spent years reading the reformers and reformed theology. Am I an expert? Far from it, yet, when reading your posts, I perceive that you do not know what reformed theology teaches.
Anyhow it's been an interesting exchange, dissappointing, but interesting nonetheless. stay blessed cv5.
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If you (or anyone else) would like to learn what reformed theology is all about here are two book recommendations. These are easy to read books. And after reading and you still disagree, atleast you will be more informed and not making false claims.
1. What is Reformed Theology - understanding the Basics (R C Sproul)
2. The Doctrines of Grace - Rediscovering the Evangelical Gosoel (James Montgomery Boice and Philip Graham Ryken)
Some other recommendations:
Introducing Covenant Theology (Michael Horton)
And if your really into your reading you could go for:
Institutes of the Christian religion (translated from the french edition 1541(in contemporary english)) - John Calvin. NB. this one of Calvins early editions, but great as it is in modern english.
If you were to ask me to pick just one book as a primer or even a refresh the go with Sprouls, what is reformed theology. Hortons intro to covenant theology a close second although not quite as easy to grasp.
with that said we can say this to each other.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (1 Cor 13:14)
This is why in his post earlier, he said, "It may take years." He is spot on with his assessment above. If you sit in reformed theology and don't bite hook,line and sinker and parse out their word salads.......you will come to these conclusions about Calvinism.
So weird that people take the "with man it is impossible" to mean that with man it is possible.
Which makes Absolutely no sense. They sinned. So they were influenced by evil and were sinners. So how did they Keep their "freewill" to be saved? They were in the EXACT same boat we are in for their salvation.
He also says God is a rapist and kidnaps people against their will, being a tyrant, and that God's
offer of repentance is fraudulent... apparently because God has the audacity to act unilaterally.
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.
Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
Yes stripped of its grand rhetoric it is ultimately a harmful doctrine about God and to people.
Wow! You are so filled with hate for the truth that it has blinded your eyes so that you can't read what people say. Did I not say earlier that A&E were created VERY GOOD and had no sin nature to hinder them from making the right choice; and therefore were free FROM all evil influences? Did Jesus ever teach anywhere that Adam's progeny are good? I seem to recall him saying that that no one but God alone is good! So what does that make fallen man today?
this is sad....
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace.
To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves.
He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us."
https://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html
Hello, Phil! So lovely to see you being active again... I do hope you are well.
It does seem strange that so much wool gathering is done in the name of the cause of defending free will,
which is not taught in the Bible. Those who defend free will are often totally hypocritical because they cannot
supply one verse in defence of their position while demanding verse after verse from those with whom they
disagree, who supply a multitude of verses, which they deny. I have shown a number of times how John 12 makes
plain free will is nowhere in sight, but nobody responds to this. That is, nobody that I see, for I do have some
people on ignore. I find their lack of honesty and anti-Biblical rants and rhetoric quite repulsive.
John 12:38b-40“Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Eve was influenced from without by the evil one but not from within her own nature. (Conversely all her offspring come into this world influenced by their evil nature, by the evil one and the world But Adam was not influenced from without; for the devil did not tempt him. This is what made his transgression so egregious and why Adam has the very dubious distinction of being contrasted with Christ in the scriptures. There is nothing ever positive said about Adam in the bible.
The only place in the bible where a positive statement about man's spiritual condition is stated is right after creation of our first parents. God created them "very good". You will be very hard pressed to find this kind of statement about mankind after the Fall.
Adam and Eve were fallen creatures in need of salvation.
We are fallen creatures in need of salvation.
How many ways can man be saved?
We have to do exactly the same thing Adam and Eve had to do to be saved............Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU shall be saved.
And do you have a problem with what I bolded above?
And as you rightly said, God chooses to leave many to their own evil devices. God doesn't have to work evil in anyone. Man's heart naturally overflows with evil. Man drinks evil like water (Job 15:16). That's how natural it is to all in Adam.