Gods will vs mans free will

[HeIsHere]

we are born with our wills enslaved to sin,

Where does it state we are born enslaved to sin?

 

[PaulThomson]

Ahh...but you don't know that. You're assuming that they had the spiritual power to make such offerings voluntarily. The prescriptive texts in the bible do not presuppose ability; they only presuppose duty.

It honours God to presuppose that His punishments for not obeying His commands imply that God knows we can obey them.
Presupposing that God commands things He knows we cannot do and then punishes us for not doing them, impugns God's character as unjust.

 

[PaulThomson]

God's effectual call is "compulsion"? You mean the kind Jesus taught about in the Parable of the Great Banquet in Lk 14:23?

"Effectual call" is not in the Bible. What is driving you to create terms that are not biblical and imposing them onto the Bible in order to manufacture evidence for theories that do not derive from sola scriptura?

 

[JohnRH]

So...the Holy Spirit himself did all the evangelizing of each and person in the world? The Holy Spirit spoke in the tongues of all the different peoples in the world? Did the Holy Spirit also give all the indigenous people of this planet a copy of the canon of scripture so that they could also share the gospel with future generations? And he did all this by 70 A.D.?

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men Titus 2:11 (KJV)

 

[LifelongLearner]

Deuteronomy 30: 19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

James 1: 13-15, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

1 Corinthians 10: 13, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

2 Peter 3: 9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all men should come to repentance."

Rom 2: 4, "Or despiseth thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."

Cheers for those beautiful scriptures glf, i've only just begun to find out how true they are and am loving the journey.

 

[HeIsHere]

"Effectual call" is not in the Bible. What is driving you to create terms that are not biblical and imposing them onto the Bible in order to manufacture evidence for theories that do not derive from sola scriptura?

Doesn't much of Calvinism do that, create terms that is? (rhetorical question)

Effectual call, limited atonement, prevenient grace, total depravity, unconditional election......the best one of all "the doctrines of grace."

 

[Jimbone]

Where does it state we are born enslaved to sin?

In John 8:34 right out of Jesus mouth-

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin...."

What are people born as? Saints? What is every man born to?

 

[HeIsHere]

In John 8:34 right out of Jesus mouth-

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin...."

Does it state a person is born a slave to sin?

I don't think so....

 

[Jimbone]

Does it state a person is born a slave to sin?

I don't think so....

Okay then, so where does it say we are born perfect and not born sinners?

I don't think anywhere....

Yeah you may have to think a few of these things out brother, but this follows perfectly. We are born fallen, every man a sinner, none are righteous, not even one. How can this be when there are TONS of babies born every hour if what you're "suggesting" is true. Do you think we are not born sinners? That we are not born spiritually dead, disconnected from God? Make your case as well, you can't just attack mine like your word is the bottom line here. If you're saying I'm wrong and we are not born sinners then please show me where it says that. Make your case friend.

 

[Jimbone]

Does it state a person is born a slave to sin?

I don't think so....

Here are a few scripture that point me to man being fallen from birth.
Genesis 8:21
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Romans 5:19
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So now let us see the case for us not being sinners from birth, from you. Please.

 

[PaulThomson]

In John 8:34 right out of Jesus mouth-

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin...."

What are people born as? Saints? What is every man born to?

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin...."

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

They had not yet practised sin, therefore they were not yet sinners.

 

[Rufus]

No, it's unspoken because it not what those who see universal atonement think or say. It is purely a figment of your imagination. According to the way your imagination works on atonement, those who are not drivers in my analogy are not drivers because the gift of a vehicle and a key was quantitatively universal but not qualitatively universal. Explain how this is the case in my analogy.

Spare me of your inane analogies, please. The irrefutable fact remains that non-Reformed people do NOT tell unbelievers that Christ's atonement actually saves them -- even though they do simultaneously speak out of the other side of their mouth and tell the lost world that "Christ died for them". Therefore, since Christ's atonement alone doesn't actually save anyone, the non-Reformed limit the atonement qualitatively. And it's limited qualitatively because unbelievers must first elect Christ (choose to believe the gospel and repent) before God can elect them! The unbelievers have to actually put the finishing touches on Christ's atonement in order to be saved, since Christ did only part of the job!

 

[Magenta]

Doesn't much of Calvinism do that, create terms that is? (rhetorical question)

Effectual call, limited atonement, prevenient grace, total depravity, unconditional election......the best one of all "the doctrines of grace."

Free will is a made up term.

 

[Magenta]

Here are a few scripture that point me to man being fallen from birth.
Genesis 8:21
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Romans 5:19
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So now let us see the case for us not being sinners from birth, from you. Please.

They can't and they won't. They refuse, in fact, to accept what is.

 

[Jimbone]

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin...."

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

They had not yet practised sin, therefore they were not yet sinners.

So show me the scripture that says we are born perfect. Simple as that. Give 1 that backs up we are born without sin.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Spare me of your inane analogies, please. The irrefutable fact remains that non-Reformed people do NOT tell unbelievers that Christ's atonement actually saves them -- even though they do simultaneously speak out of the other side of their mouth and tell the lost world that "Christ died for them". Therefore, since Christ's atonement alone doesn't actually save anyone, the non-Reformed limit the atonement qualitatively. And it's limited qualitatively because unbelievers must first elect Christ (choose to believe the gospel and repent) before God can elect them! The unbelievers have to actually put the finishing touches on Christ's atonement in order to be saved, since Christ did only part of the job!

"The irrefutable fact remains that non-Reformed people do NOT tell unbelievers that Christ's atonement actually saves them -- even though they do simultaneously speak out of the other side of their mouth and tell the lost world that "Christ died for them".

Really disagree with that Rufus, i grew up in a Catholic family and had a "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests!" t-shirt. when a teenager in the '70's.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:

You are dishonestly framing the issue here...

If a One World Order decreed that all humans on the planet are entitled to drive a vehicle and issued a vehicle to every person on the planet, they would need to issue ignition keys to every person. The gift of a vehicle and keys is both quantitatively and qualitatively universal. But in order for a person to actually be a driver they will need to seat themselves in their gifted vehicle, close the door, insert the gifted key, turn the ignition, engage the gears, and pump the accelerator, as they release the brake. Anyone who fails to do those steps that follow being gifted the vehicle and keys, will not be a driver. The fact that someone does not become a driver does not mean that the gift of vehicle and keys was qualitatively limited. They we given a perfect car and a perfect key. There is no need to invent and claim a paradox to explain why any particular person was given a vehicle and a key but did not become a driver. It is obvious why they did not become a driver; because it is obvious that receiving a vehicle and key is only one step in a process of becoming a driver.

Those who reject limited atonement and believe in universal atonement see Jesus atoning as a step in a process toward salvation; a step that needs to be followed up with subsequent steps that the recipient is responsible to perform by grace through faith.

So we can easily see that it is only those promoting limited atonement who need to invent the extra-biblical categories "quantitatively limited atonement" and "qualitatively universal atonement" and claim to see a paradox, to excuse their misreading of scripture. Those who believe in universal atonement do not need to invent two categories that paradoxically conflict. with one another. We do not hold to the "UNSPOKEN implicit truth" you falsely attribute to us.

You do hold to the two categories. In fact, you just admitted it in the bolded red section above! Since Christ's atonement was merely the first step, and other steps must be taken by hearers of the gospel in order to procure the atonement for themselves, then you just unwittingly proved that Christ's Atonement was indeed LIMITED qualitatively because the first step Christ took doesn't actually save anyone! He supposed died for everyone but his atonement itself doesn't save anyone. In order for Christ's atonement to be qualitatively universal, it would need to be efficacious.

Your lame cars and keys analogy is your worst yet! What good does a spiffy new, perfect car and perfect set of keys do for drivers who are technologically-challenged, since they come into this world with an anti-technology disposition because they love the simpler ways of life? Your analogy completely overlooks man's spiritual problem. Your analogy assumes that many men will love their gifts; whereas the spiritual reality is that man is helplessly enslaved to his sin nature, to the world, to the devil and to the law, and as such hates God and loves the darkness, the world and all that is evil. You analogy lacks the twin components of man's helplessness and God's merciful rescue. Your analogy says the New World Order began a good work but the people of the world must complete it -- a concept that is totally antithetical to scripture.

 

[Rufus]

"The irrefutable fact remains that non-Reformed people do NOT tell unbelievers that Christ's atonement actually saves them -- even though they do simultaneously speak out of the other side of their mouth and tell the lost world that "Christ died for them".

Really disagree with that Rufus, i grew up in a Catholic family and had a "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests!" t-shirt. when a teenager in the '70's.

Well....there is a lot of religious junk in the world -- both in terms of art and literature. But did the T-shirt tell people how Jesus "saves"?

 

[LifelongLearner]

Well....there is a lot of religious junk in the world -- both in terms of art and literature. But did the T-shirt tell people how Jesus "saves"?

Not enough room on it, i was a skinny little thing but we were told how at school and church.

 

[studentoftheword]

Gods will vs mans free will

Man has Free Will only for choice ------that is it -----God will not interfere in what choices we humans make ----They can accept or reject God -----they can believe that Jesus walked the earth or not believe it ---they can decide to work or not to work ----we can follow Satan and despise God ----God allows us that freedom of choice -----Human choices have nothing to do with what God's will wants ----as we are under Satan's rule and follow his will a lot of the time ----
--
We have a corrupt Nature until God pulls on our hardened heart to repent and accept His Salvation offer ====and we have a choice to accept that pull or reject it -----

If we accept His pull and embrace His Gift of Salvation --then and only then does His Will for us come into focus ------we have a nature change and begin to know what God's will for us actually means and entails -----

Seeking God's will for one's life means Praying ---discerning ----reading His word and listening to the Holy Spirit's directions -----

when we come to Christ ---we are to lay down ----ego ---and choosing to do what we want ---when we want and how we want to do things -----and find out what God wants us to do ---when to do it and how to do it -----which pleases Him not us ------

We were slaves to this wicked world and then by accepting Jesus in our hearts ----we are now Slaves of Christ ----