Gods Ten Commandments

[kinda]

The New Testament never states that Gentiles are a covenant people under the law.

You guys need to stop reading the legal literature and start reading Paul's letters.

Did the early church fathers believe in Keeping the ten commandments
"The early church fathers, including Irenaeus, believed in the observance of the Ten Commandments as a standard of moral character. They recognized the Ten Commandments as a test of Christian character and made their observance a condition of eternal life. They also asserted the origin of the Sabbath at creation and the existence of Sabbath-keepers. The early church fathers' teachings and writings provide a clear understanding of their belief in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. "


"The Ten Commandments were removed from public school classrooms in the U.S. in 1980 following the Supreme Court's ruling in Stone v. Graham, which declared a Kentucky law requiring their display unconstitutional. This decision was based on the Court's interpretation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Since then, the display of the Ten Commandments in schools has been a subject of ongoing debate and legal challenges, with some states considering new laws to mandate their display. "


Did Billy Graham believe in keeping the ten commandments?
"Billy Graham firmly believed in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. He emphasized their relevance in today's world and their applicability regardless of the century people live in. Graham's belief was rooted in the understanding that the Commandments reveal humanity's need for grace and forgiveness, and they guide individuals in living a life that aligns with God's will. He encouraged people to face honestly their need for God's forgiveness and wisdom, committing their lives to Jesus Christ as a way to find peace with God"


"John Calvin believed in the Ten Commandments and regarded them as a fundamental part of the Christian faith. He viewed the commandments as a means to teach righteousness, restrain evil, and reveal the path to freedom and holiness. Calvin emphasized their three primary uses: to reflect God's righteousness, to restrain sin, and to guide believers towards a godly lifestyle. He believed that the commandments are essential for understanding one's relationship with God and neighbor, and they serve as a guide for moral behavior in Christian life "

 

[Inquisitor]

Did the early church fathers believe in Keeping the ten commandments
"The early church fathers, including Irenaeus, believed in the observance of the Ten Commandments as a standard of moral character. They recognized the Ten Commandments as a test of Christian character and made their observance a condition of eternal life. They also asserted the origin of the Sabbath at creation and the existence of Sabbath-keepers. The early church fathers' teachings and writings provide a clear understanding of their belief in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. "


"The Ten Commandments were removed from public school classrooms in the U.S. in 1980 following the Supreme Court's ruling in Stone v. Graham, which declared a Kentucky law requiring their display unconstitutional. This decision was based on the Court's interpretation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Since then, the display of the Ten Commandments in schools has been a subject of ongoing debate and legal challenges, with some states considering new laws to mandate their display. "


Did Billy Graham believe in keeping the ten commandments?
"Billy Graham firmly believed in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. He emphasized their relevance in today's world and their applicability regardless of the century people live in. Graham's belief was rooted in the understanding that the Commandments reveal humanity's need for grace and forgiveness, and they guide individuals in living a life that aligns with God's will. He encouraged people to face honestly their need for God's forgiveness and wisdom, committing their lives to Jesus Christ as a way to find peace with God"


"John Calvin believed in the Ten Commandments and regarded them as a fundamental part of the Christian faith. He viewed the commandments as a means to teach righteousness, restrain evil, and reveal the path to freedom and holiness. Calvin emphasized their three primary uses: to reflect God's righteousness, to restrain sin, and to guide believers towards a godly lifestyle. He believed that the commandments are essential for understanding one's relationship with God and neighbor, and they serve as a guide for moral behavior in Christian life "

Exactly, the traditional church was off track early in Christian history.

They grabbed hold of the law and discarded the power of the Holy Spirit.

They misunderstood grace and turned Christianity into a legal exercise.

Their is a deep echo of how the Jews turned from the Lord embedded in traditional Christianity.

They looked at the law and said well that's Gods character, God tells no lies and does not steal.

Problem was that Jesus fulfilled the law so they searched long and hard in the law.

What did Jesus fulfill?

Their conclusion; Jesus didn't fulfill the moral commandments except for the sabbath.

So they ended up with nine commandments and went on their merry way.

The Catholics, the Orthodox, Protestants, Reformers, all blowing the same nine notes on the trumpet.

The law is binding they say.

None of this is in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

They omitted grace and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ever notice that the disposition of the commandments are commanding oeiple not to do certain things ?

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, ( thou shalt not kill ) for whoremongers, ( thou shalt not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you don’t need a law saying “ thou shall not steal “ unless you are a thief . Christian’s have to be born again of the spirit of Christ Jesus by the gospel we can be trying to learn and obey “ don’t kill anyone “ if that’s the case we need to repent and turn to Jesus and receive his spirit and accept his doctrine teaching us not to harm anyone . Then “ don’t kill “ becomes irrelevant because we have a better word . Being taught how to love others what to do , rather than commands to wicked folk telling them to stop killing and stealing and lying to each other . They can’t be born again through the law it’s for the old man the adulterer or liar who died with Christ the one we’re called to put to death . Children of God are born again by the gospel and walk in faith believing the gospel . They shouldn’t need to be taught to stop killing or be killed ….. they should have learned to turn the other cheek and to do no harm to others even in retaliation to be honest and faithful to take care of others rether than taking advantage of them ect to honor marriage and take it as a lifetime commitment and be faithful in Gods sight tonthe vows we take . Ect as we learn the gospel ……the need for the law falls away because you don’t remain a liar …. Who needs to keep the lee telling you not to lie , you follow Christ and speak the truth in love . You weren’t a killer who needs to keep the commandment “ don’t kill “ you’re born again and have learned of the father to treat others with respect and seek peace and reconciliation to forgive and share ect we’re taught by Jesus to love others gods way and so there’s no need to tell anyone “ don’t kill “ we know the things to do now we know to turn the other cheek to forgive when someone wrongs or insults us to share with the needy we’ve learned to repent of the lustful looks we follow after and learned about helping others when we can and doing no harm to anyone ….. “ do not kill “ becomes irrelevant but live one another as I have commanded you becomes the relevance we Christian’s trust n and follow after we know the lawgiver we don’t have to look through a veil anymore

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t have to look into a ministration of death anymore commandments engraved in stone

“who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:6-7‬ ‭

We were never given commandments on stones instead the living lord Jesus came among us as one of us , to teach us the truth in the gospel.

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

….Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63, 68-69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:16-

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christian’s are meant to look to the things Jesus and his apostles taught

The voice of one crying in the wilderness.

2 Corinthians 3:15
But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart.

 

[kinda]

Exactly, the traditional church was off track early in Christian history.

They grabbed hold of the law and discarded the power of the Holy Spirit.

They misunderstood grace and turned Christianity into a legal exercise.

Their is a deep echo of how the Jews turned from the Lord embedded in traditional Christianity.

They looked at the law and said well that's Gods character, God tells no lies and does not steal.

Problem was that Jesus fulfilled the law so they searched long and hard in the law.

What did Jesus fulfill?

Their conclusion; Jesus didn't fulfill the moral commandments except for the sabbath.

So they ended up with nine commandments and went on their merry way.

The Catholics, the Orthodox, Protestants, Reformers, all blowing the same nine notes on the trumpet.

The law is binding they say.

None of this is in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

They omitted grace and the Holy Spirit.

So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments, but only the non-denominational prerapture faith is correct? Just checking in, because I don't know where else would dare say such things...


Galatians 5:

13For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Romans 8:9–11)

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
    
    
    You quote Galatians 5, but did you read a little bit further? There is literally a warning, that you if make a practice of breaking the Ten Commandments/Laws of the Old Testament, will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's very contradictory, of what you believe.

Lets list them shall we?

Sexual immorality - Commandment 7
impurity -Commandment 7
debauchery -Commandment 7
idolatry Commandment 2
sorcery
The commandment against sorcery is found in Exodus 22:18, which states, "You shall not allow a sorceress to live."
hatred -Commandment 9
discord Commandment 6
Proverbs 6:16-19, which states that the Lord hates strife and sowing discord among people.
jeolousy Commandment 10
rage Commandment 6
rivalries etc
divisions
factions
envy
drunkeness
orgies


I didn't finish, but I hope you got the point...

When Jesus said, "not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law" (Matthew 5:18)

The phrase "These are they that have the testimony of Jesus and keep his Commandments" is found in Revelation 14:12

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


You can have the last word, but I hope you at least read this post.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The voice of one crying in the wilderness.

2 Corinthians 3:15
But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart.

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Inquisitor]

So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments, but only the non-denominational prerapture faith is correct? Just checking in, because I don't know where else would dare say such things...


Galatians 5:

13For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Romans 8:9–11)

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
    
    
    You quote Galatians 5, but did you read a little bit further? There is literally a warning, that you if make a practice of breaking the Ten Commandments/Laws of the Old Testament, will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's very contradictory, of what you believe.

Lets list them shall we?

Sexual immorality - Commandment 7
impurity -Commandment 7
debauchery -Commandment 7
idolatry Commandment 2
sorcery
The commandment against sorcery is found in Exodus 22:18, which states, "You shall not allow a sorceress to live."
hatred -Commandment 9
discord Commandment 6
Proverbs 6:16-19, which states that the Lord hates strife and sowing discord among people.
jeolousy Commandment 10
rage Commandment 6
rivalries etc
divisions
factions
envy
drunkeness
orgies


I didn't finish, but I hope you got the point...

When Jesus said, "not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law" (Matthew 5:18)

The phrase "These are they that have the testimony of Jesus and keep his Commandments" is found in Revelation 14:12

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


You can have the last word, but I hope you at least read this post.

You stated.

"So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments, but only the non-denominational
prerapture faith is correct?"

I said nothing about non-denominational churches as many are daughter churches of the mainline
churches. That's not correct.

As for eschatology that is in the too hard basket and I have no view.

Then you quoted the following verses.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh.
Rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Paul describes freedom as a spiritual liberation achieved through Christ.
Christians are freed from the bondage of the Mosaic Law and the law of sin and death.
Free form the need to earn salvation through legal works.
This freedom is a new life in the Spirit, enabling believers to serve one another through agape love.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The Catholic Church disagreed with what Paul said in Galatians 5.

Thomas Aquinas (13th century) divided the Old Testament "Old Law" into three distinct categories;
1 moral
2 ceremonial
3 civil precept

To explain their enduring relevance or expiration under the New Covenant.
He argued that moral law (Ten Commandments) are eternal, while ceremonial laws and civil laws
were temporary, fulfilled by Christ.

Thomas Aquinas is the greatest theologian/philosopher of the Catholic Church.

Your division of the law into moral and ceremonial law is a Catholic doctrine.

You uphold the teaching of Thomas Aquinas and I regard you as a Catholic disciple.

Paul stated the following.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Thomas Aquinas said, you are under the law.

See the conflict?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You stated.

"So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments, but only the non-denominational
prerapture faith is correct?"

I said nothing about non-denominational churches as many are daughter churches of the mainline
churches. That's not correct.

As for eschatology that is in the too hard basket and I have no view.

Then you quoted the following verses.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh.
Rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Paul describes freedom as a spiritual liberation achieved through Christ.
Christians are freed from the bondage of the Mosaic Law and the law of sin and death.
Free form the need to earn salvation through legal works.
This freedom is a new life in the Spirit, enabling believers to serve one another through agape love.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The Catholic Church disagreed with what Paul said in Galatians 5.

Thomas Aquinas (13th century) divided the Old Testament "Old Law" into three distinct categories;
1 moral
2 ceremonial
3 civil precept

To explain their enduring relevance or expiration under the New Covenant.
He argued that moral law (Ten Commandments) are eternal, while ceremonial laws and civil laws
were temporary, fulfilled by Christ.

Thomas Aquinas is the greatest theologian/philosopher of the Catholic Church.

Your division of the law into moral and ceremonial law is a Catholic doctrine.

You uphold the teaching of Thomas Aquinas and I regard you as a Catholic disciple.

Paul stated the following.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Thomas Aquinas said, you are under the law.

See the conflict?

@kinda made no mention of the roman catholic stuff or Thomas's Aquinas. Why do you write like if he is ascribing to their beliefs?

Don't falsely attribute things to others, especially to try to make them look bad.



As for the Holy Spirit, He doesn't go against God the Father and Jesus. He will lead God's people to obey Him and what God has written on our hearts.

Since these virtues are good and God-honoring, “against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:23). The law has no charge against someone who lives in love and righteousness by the Spirit’s power.


🕊

 

[kinda]

@kinda made no mention of the roman catholic stuff or Thomas's Aquinas. Why do you write like if he is ascribing to their beliefs?

Don't falsely attribute things to others, especially to try to make them look bad.



As for the Holy Spirit, He doesn't go against God the Father and Jesus. He will lead God's people to obey Him and what God has written on our hearts.

Since these virtues are good and God-honoring, “against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:23). The law has no charge against someone who lives in love and righteousness by the Spirit’s power.


🕊

Yeah, it’s funny this is the second time someone mentioned Catholicism when responding to me.

I'm very much protestant. I have been pretty vocal about my stance against the Catholic Church over the years, but no worries. People can believe whatever they want though, it's not my job to change their minds.. lol

 

[Inquisitor]

@kinda made no mention of the roman catholic stuff or Thomas's Aquinas. Why do you write like if he is ascribing to their beliefs?

Don't falsely attribute things to others, especially to try to make them look bad.



As for the Holy Spirit, He doesn't go against God the Father and Jesus. He will lead God's people to obey Him and what God has written on our hearts.

Since these virtues are good and God-honoring, “against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:23). The law has no charge against someone who lives in love and righteousness by the Spirit’s power.


🕊

Nothing false in what I posted.

To promote the ten commandments is promoting the law.

Kinda stated the following statement.

So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments.

Kinda is reciting the law which you call the moral law.

The correct terminology derived from the scripture is not 'keeping the ten commandments.'

The correct way to phrase that clause is to say 'we are under the law, the ten commandments.'

You and Kinda promote the law. You and Kinda are Judaizers by definition.

Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians, both of Jewish and non-Jewish origins, who regarded
the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on all Christians. (wiki.Judaizers)

This was the subject discussed by the apostles in Acts 15.

Are Gentiles under the law?

 

[Inquisitor]

Yeah, it’s funny this is the second time someone mentioned Catholicism when responding to me.

I'm very much protestant. I have been pretty vocal about my stance against the Catholic Church over the years, but no worries. People can believe whatever they want though, it's not my job to change their minds.. lol

Protestants absorbed the division in the law of the moral law (ten commandments) and
the ceremonial law, from the Reformers. The Reformers accepted the teaching of Thomas Aquinas.

Thomas Aquinas (13th century) formalised the division of the Old Testament "Old Law" into
three distinct categories: moral, ceremonial, and judicial precepts. This framework, often called
the tripartite division, argues that only the moral law (e.g., Ten Commandments) remains eternally binding,
while ceremonial and judicial laws were fulfilled by Christ. (Google AI)

Your going to have to accept that the Protestant Church absorbed Catholic doctrine.

Whenever I hear the phrase "eternal, moral law" coupled with "ceremonial law".

Which is Catholic doctrine and defined by Thomas Aquinas.

I know where this philosophy originated.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@kinda made no mention of the roman catholic stuff or Thomas's Aquinas. Why do you write like if he is ascribing to their beliefs?

Don't falsely attribute things to others, especially to try to make them look bad.



As for the Holy Spirit, He doesn't go against God the Father and Jesus. He will lead God's people to obey Him and what God has written on our hearts.

Since these virtues are good and God-honoring, “against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:23). The law has no charge against someone who lives in love and righteousness by the Spirit’s power.


🕊

“The law has no charge against someone who lives in love and righteousness by the Spirit’s power.”

amen .

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

…….Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63, 68-69‬ ‭

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ….Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

…..For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24, 26-27‬ ‭

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him:

he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles……: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 3-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“O sing unto the LORD a new song; For he hath done marvellous things: His right hand, and his holy arm, Hath gotten him the victory. The LORD hath made known his salvation: His righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Before the LORD;

For he cometh to judge the earth: With righteousness shall he judge the world, And the people with equity.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭98:1-3, 9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Inquisitor]

Did the early church fathers believe in Keeping the ten commandments
"The early church fathers, including Irenaeus, believed in the observance of the Ten Commandments as a standard of moral character. They recognized the Ten Commandments as a test of Christian character and made their observance a condition of eternal life. They also asserted the origin of the Sabbath at creation and the existence of Sabbath-keepers. The early church fathers' teachings and writings provide a clear understanding of their belief in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. "


"The Ten Commandments were removed from public school classrooms in the U.S. in 1980 following the Supreme Court's ruling in Stone v. Graham, which declared a Kentucky law requiring their display unconstitutional. This decision was based on the Court's interpretation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Since then, the display of the Ten Commandments in schools has been a subject of ongoing debate and legal challenges, with some states considering new laws to mandate their display. "


Did Billy Graham believe in keeping the ten commandments?
"Billy Graham firmly believed in the importance of keeping the Ten Commandments. He emphasized their relevance in today's world and their applicability regardless of the century people live in. Graham's belief was rooted in the understanding that the Commandments reveal humanity's need for grace and forgiveness, and they guide individuals in living a life that aligns with God's will. He encouraged people to face honestly their need for God's forgiveness and wisdom, committing their lives to Jesus Christ as a way to find peace with God"


"John Calvin believed in the Ten Commandments and regarded them as a fundamental part of the Christian faith. He viewed the commandments as a means to teach righteousness, restrain evil, and reveal the path to freedom and holiness. Calvin emphasized their three primary uses: to reflect God's righteousness, to restrain sin, and to guide believers towards a godly lifestyle. He believed that the commandments are essential for understanding one's relationship with God and neighbor, and they serve as a guide for moral behavior in Christian life "

Do your research.

Where did Calvin learn the division of the law into moral and ceremonial?

Yes, Ireneaus saw the decalogue as a moral standard.

Augustine divided the law into the decalogue and symbolic law.

Exactly the same division.

But Thomas Aquinas described the division as eternal, moral law and ceremonial law.

The traditional church (Ireneaus and Augustine) both adopted the law into Christianity.

But Thomas Aquinas was the source for the Reformers; Calvin.

The Protestants borrowed the decalogue and Calvinism for the Protestant Church.

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah, this is what the Judaizers always miss: life in the Spirit replaces life in the letter of the law.

God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

The greatest error comes from believing that "commandment" always means "those written on stone" and that "law" always means "those given at Sinai".

I completely agree that it does not always mean that, and in fact it often does not.

Under the law, a person could not give up their own lives.

The law was designed to save the lives of the people. The law also only required people to give as much as they could give in their own strength. Christ's commands surpass the law. And the commands He still speaks surpass the law.

Nowhere does the Bible say this.

THIS is what is means to have the law of God written on our hearts: His nature becomes our nature. God does not need, for example, a reminder to have no other God before Him. That's a ridiculous idea. Nor does He need reminders for self-restraint or love. God IS love. When His nature (law) becomes ours, we live as God is in the earth.

The Law of God written on stone has the same content as the Law of God written on our hearts. For example, the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts.

 

[Soyeong]

@Inquisitor @Oncefallen

See what they do?

For example:



Conveniently starting the passage late and ending it early to dodge what they don't believe.

Let's look at the Romans passage as a whole:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

The "law of sin and death" is the same law they demand people obey.

Paul is actually contrasting their garbage belief to uphold the Sinai law with the law of the Spirit.

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

So, they stop here. But the passage continues...

8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Do you see how it is a shift in identity and not behavior? If the Spirit of Christ is in you, you have...

In Romans 7-8:2 Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and which the Law of the Spirit has free us from. Moreover, in Romans 8:3-7, Christ freed us from the law of sin so that we could be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God and Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. The Law of God leads us to do what is godly, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5).

So verses that refer to something that would be absurd for Paul to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God while verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin. For example, in Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us and it would be absurd for Paul to delight in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, so we are still under the Law of God but are not under the law of sin. So the Law of God is not the law of sin and death and I have been speaking in favor of obeying the Law of God while you have been speaking in favor of obeying the law of sin and death.

1. Died to yourself. - Your connection to Adam has ceased. ("For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.")
2. Died to the Sinai law - The Sinai law has no power over a dead man. ("Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.")
3. Received the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. - God fulfilled His promise to inhabit His people. ("He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.")
4. You are now included in the beloved of God as a son. - We are His flesh and His bones. ("For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.")

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. ,The way to become unified with God's Word made flesh is not by dying to God's Word, but rather we need to die a a law that is was hindering us from obeying God's Word, namely the law of sin. Likewise, the way to bear fruit for God is not by dying to His instructions for how to bear fruit for him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from bearing fruit for him, namely the law of sin. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God.

It's number 4 that make the Judaism's message anti-Christ. God reckons that we are His children so He obligates Himself to raise us as our Father. This is true because we are of Christ and in Christ. The Judaizers, by declaring that those in Christ must follow the Sinai law, are saying that Christ must follow the Sinai law. As their proof, they will point to the life of Jesus.

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he is the man of lawfulness, and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same that he walked (1 John 2:6), which is in contrast with the anti-Christ, who is the man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

What they miss is that Jesus was born under the law to that He could redeem us from the law: "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

The Law of God was given as a precious gift for our own good in order to teach us how to be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so those under the law had no need to be redeemed from the law but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of Moses, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.

The redemption is adoption. It is a change in identity: from Adam's son to God's son. God's sons were never given the law. They could be born under the law, but when they died, the law had no power over them. A man who has God as his Father doesn't need a law to teach him correct behavior: that is accomplished spirit to Spirit, as the Father walks with the man, His son.

This is what it means to be "in Christ".

In Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. By all means please quote where the Bible says being born of the Spirit means that we don't need the Law of God.

In Christ, we are reconciled back to the time when Christ the Son was with God the Father. This is a time when they spoke face to face. And the Son always did what He saw His Father doing. That was the standard of righteousness: do what your father tells you to do.

This was the righteousness that Abraham displayed 430 years before Sinai. This was the greater promise: that such a man would be the sons of God. Sinai cannot override what was given 430 years hence. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect."

The Judaizers believe Christ is not in your body. That is anti-Christ. That's why they insist you follow the Sinai law.

The way to do what our Father tells us is not by refusing to do what our Father has told us. New covenant do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are eternally and cumulatively valid. I believe that Christ is my body and I have said nothing contrary to that. Christ lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also the way that we can to live when he is living in us. I completely agree with Paul's stance against the Judaizers.

But if Christ is in you, you have died to the law. God is your Father because He adopted you. You are His child. And He speaks to you by His Spirit to your spirit.

Sadly you've died to the wrong law. The children of God do not reject what He has commanded.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You can have the last word, but I hope you at least read this post.

You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
“You shall not covet. “


“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5-

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but



for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, ( honor your parents ) for manslayers,( do not kill people ) for whoremongers,( do not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars,( do not lie ) for perjured persons, ( do not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


No one’s saying “ break the Ten Commandments god gave to Israel “ what’s being said is we can’t worship god or please him by observing ten things he told israel when he made a covenant wi th them after he delivered them from Egypt through Moses mediation .


to worship and please god has nothing to do with ten things written on any rocks . To accomplish that we simply need to listen to and follow after Jesus and his judgements and words in the gospel .


Not killing people is what you tell killers “ don’t kill anyone or you just surely be put to death “ you tell liars “ don’t lie or you’ll be separated “ you tell adulterers and unfaithful people “ don’t commit adultery or you must be out to death “ you tell idolaters who worship false gods “ don’t make idols and worship them and call them god “ ect


We can’t survive by the law it’s meant to reveal sin to sinners and show that it’s death


this is sin dont do it

“Thou shall not commit adultery “

Anyone who does it must surely die

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


this doesn’t mean someone’s saying “ commit adultery “ what’s being said is learning what Jesus taught in the gospel creates faithful hearts and minds leads us to not look with lust which is what causes a person to commit adultery ….. the spiritual things Jesus taught in the gospel create new people with new hearts and minds and understanding and relationship with God


It’s contrary to Moses law at too many points Jesus is our Ten Commandments , our law giver , our mediator , our judge , our savior , our advocate , our high priest , our sacrifice , our Passover , our Lord ……


the law is how to worship God without the spirit of Christ n our hearts making us new and capable then we’d have to constantly bind “ do not kill “ aroind our hearts so we remembered not to kill …. But we have the spirit of Christ in us in our hearts so we don’t need a rock we have him to speak oir direction “ love your fellow man , don’t rely eye for an eye and wound for wound like Moses taught but instead don’t retaliate don’t take revenge don’t take an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth forgive and let God repay “


Jesus doesn’t teach anyone to kill or commit adultery or create idols …if we follow him the rocks become irrelevant we have the living lord with us like we ourselves are in the cloud

 

[vassal]

Nothing false in what I posted.

To promote the ten commandments is promoting the law.

Kinda stated the following statement.

So, most of all church has it wrong to keep the 10 Commandments.

Kinda is reciting the law which you call the moral law.

The correct terminology derived from the scripture is not 'keeping the ten commandments.'

The correct way to phrase that clause is to say 'we are under the law, the ten commandments.'

You and Kinda promote the law. You and Kinda are Judaizers by definition.

Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians, both of Jewish and non-Jewish origins, who regarded
the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on all Christians. (wiki.Judaizers)

This was the subject discussed by the apostles in Acts 15.

Are Gentiles under the law?

did jesus promote the 10 commandments?

 

[Inquisitor]

did jesus promote the 10 commandments?

Jesus ultimately promoted faithfulness and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Without love you have nothing.

 

[Inquisitor]

God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27)


I completely agree that it does not always mean that, and in fact it often does not.


Nowhere does the Bible say this.


The Law of God written on stone has the same content as the Law of God written on our hearts. For example, the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts.

The law is weak and superficial and the law cannot grant life.

The fruit, gifts, and ministries of the Holy Spirit are the path that we walk.

We boast only in Jesus.

 

[vassal]

Jesus ultimately promoted faithfulness and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Without love you have nothing.

Jesus ultimately promoted faithfulness and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Without love you have nothing.

yes Jesus did promote the Ten Commandments, you know this very well but refuse this truth.

Jesus upheld them, taught them, and deepened them.

When a rich young ruler asked Him about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you would enter into life, keep the commandments,” and then He listed several of the Ten Commandments: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother (Matthew 19:17–19). He did not replace them. He confirmed them.

In the Sermon on the Mount He said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets… till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law” (Matthew 5:17–18). Then He showed their true depth. He said anger in the heart breaks the command not to murder. He said lust in the heart breaks the command not to commit adultery (Matthew 5:21–28). He did not lower the standard. He raised it to the heart.

He also said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). Love and obedience go together.

So yes, He spoke about faithfulness. Yes, He spoke about love. But He never separated love from obedience. The commandments show what love looks like in action.

Without love, obedience becomes empty.

But without obedience, love becomes empty words.

 

[Soyeong]

The law is weak and superficial and the law cannot grant life.

The fruit, gifts, and ministries of the Holy Spirit are the path that we walk.

We boast only in Jesus.

For example, love is one of the fruits of the Spirit and everything in the Law of God is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, so the Spirit leads us to love is not doing something other than leading us to obey the Law of God. The Law of God does not cause us to love, but rather it describes the life of someone who loves God and their neighbor. What causes us to love is faith in Jesus. It is contradictory to have faith in God's Word made flesh instead of in God's Word.