God's Elect: This Ends Any Debate

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DavyP said:
That mocking reveals that you think highly of yourself. It certainly does not show any Biblical understanding.
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Yet you represent, according to you, the be all and end all of any discussion on God's elect. So, what are we looking at then? Double jeopardy?

What you are saying in reality, is that you are here to teach and you are not up for discussion. You are just one in a long long long line of people who do not go to church but believe they are God's gift to the rest of us and have the ability to read into scripture what others have missed because they have no biblical understanding.

You should take note of the fact that if someone disagrees with you or points out something that might cause one to question your absolute faith in yourself to understand all scripture, that does not mean they have no Biblical understanding. Even God Himself allows questioning and does not expect everyone to be on the same rung of the ladder at the same time.

So, with regards to you dismissing others with a rebuke you do not have the authority to dispense, Go look in the mirror. To quote an Old Testament prophet, YOU are the man.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
this is the second thread in a month where the one who posted the thread said argument over. Or irrefutable evidence. Or whatever.

It is also the second thread that caught my eye. But the OP failed to prove their point. In fact. He failed to even properly show what Jesus said in the chapter he spoke of.

I also do not think I have ever seen a person who believes prety much in calvinism and Arminianism in one post (free will vs no free will)
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There was another who believed that some time back. Very confusing. We had the called elect and the make up your own mind elect. They became very antagonistic when scriptures were pointed out that disagreed with their way of harmonizing scripture.
 
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ocean said:
There was another who believed that some time back. Very confusing. We had the called elect and the make up your own mind elect. They became very antagonistic when scriptures were pointed out that disagreed with their way of harmonizing scripture.
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I think I may be remembering the same person ... it was a woman and when it was pointed out what she was doing she would deny that also ... she would say basically that if someone chooses to believe then they become elect... That only a very few people like Moses and Paul were chosen. She really was kind of all over the place and she's been gone for quite a few months now...
 
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FaithMan said:
After a quick survey of the link you posted, I was quite disappointed...
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The person you quoted there has been banned ... I know it doesn't say that under her name, which usually happens, but she has been banned.
 
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DavyP said:
One of the most important Bible Chapters that reveals what God's election is about is with Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17 just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified.

Jesus revealed 2 different groups of believers in John 17:

1. His elect Apostles, prophets, patriarchs. Jesus showed The Father originally owned them, and gave them to Jesus. He thus will often directly intervene in their lives to serve Him. This is why Lord Jesus directly intervened with Saul (Apostle Paul), converting him on the road to Damascus when Saul was persecuting the Church (Acts 9). The word apostle means to be 'sent'. Jesus said He sent these into the world, and that they are not of the world. Likewise with Jonah, he tried to get out of his duty that God gave him, but God made him fulfill it. Ownership, that's what this group is about. He already owned them before this present world. These represent Christ's "very elect". Calvinists often wrongly... apply this group to every believer, but that is not what Lord Jesus showed in John 17.

2. Those who must believe by using their own free will represent the majority of believers on The Father and The Son. This second group Jesus revealed is by their believing by His Apostle's word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). These still can use their free will to fall away, and God will allow it and will not intervene unless they repent and ask Him.

Then Jesus prayed that BOTH groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This means that the 1st group, His "very elect", cannot... fall away, because He already owns them.

But the 2nd group of believers can fall away by their own choice, and they only become part of His election while they remain walking in Christ Jesus.

This is why man's 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine is not Biblical. For the majority of us, we must... remain walking in Christ Jesus until the end, and beware of being deceived by Satan and his host. This is why Christ and His Apostles, especially Apostle Paul, gave so many warnings against falling away, especially for those in the last days. It is why He warned us about the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah that must come first playing God with the power to do miracles like Jesus Christ.
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I presonally believe that prayer was said when they lived by and were under the law. Now after He rose and went up (shouting time) well really dive in to that prayer .. yeah. But haha I'm with Cameron on this one haha.. Thanks Cam
 
bluejean_bible said:
If he died for all in the world his ministry would have been differently worded.

Especially as we recall his telling us,no one can come to him unless the father calls them. And if all the father gives him,he will lose none.
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Many are called few are chosen.

it is by grace we have been saved through faith not of works

you can not remove faith from the equation.

faith is also not a work
 
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bluejean_bible said:
The passage says exactly that.

They can only be drawn to him and understand his gospel if he calls them , has entered into them, and left them then to understand the gospel. Otherwise,in their natural state they cannot do any of this of their own accord.
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lol

God came to israel. And called the nation to himself

they not only rejected him, they crucified him.

He said in one of his last days how he continually wanted to gather them together. But they were not willing.
 
FaithMan said:
Perhaps later I will get more time to go into this. Right now I'm packing to drive across the country. My guess is you are making a mistake that I frequently make and that is to quote biblical narrative from memory. Might I suggest your memory is not correct? It was not only Joshua. Caleb also crossed over.

Regarding the age of innocence at that time, as delineated in Numbers 14 and expounded upon in Deuteronomy chapter 1, the age division denoted in the actual text is 20. See Numbers 14:29-30. In those two verses, it clearly states "twenty years and upward" would not enter the Promise Land, and clearly states that Caleb and Joshua would enter the promise land. The text is the text.

As to your Daniel reference, I missing how it ties into the specifics of the conversation. I've written an entire chapter in my book about the sins of the fathers. It does not mean what so many curse deliverance proponents claim.

God Bless

Thanks for the response.
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I do not believe it has anythign to do with salvation.

but I do believe many a son has suffered because of the sins of the fathers..
 
bluejean_bible said:
It's sad that you find that laugh out loud funny.
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It’s sad you think God keeps his loving grace from people. For whatever reason. And does not allow them the ability to say yes or no.

To Me. God says he is a loving God. Satan attacks that character of God. And when someone says that God keeps the truth from people so they woud never even have the ability to believe, well that is doing exactly that, destroying the character of God.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
It’s sad you think God keeps his loving grace from people. For whatever reason. And does not allow them the ability to say yes or no.

To Me. God says he is a loving God. Satan attacks that character of God. And when someone says that God keeps the truth from people so they woud never even have the ability to believe, well that is doing exactly that, destroying the character of God.
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The failed subtle effort to attack my faith is noted. Which goes even further to demonstrate your understanding of scripture is lacking.
The personal attack doesn't distract from notice of that. It actually reiterates it.

I'll pray for you.
 
bluejean_bible said:
The failed subtle effort to attack my faith is noted. Which goes even further to demonstrate your understanding of scripture is lacking.
The personal attack doesn't distract from notice of that. It actually reiterates it.

I'll pray for you.
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Thats why I hate these discussions. You say something that is in essence an attack on my faith. (Which you did)

and then I give a counter point. And you take offense. And I am not allowed to take offense?

My understanding of scripture is fine my friend. If you would like to discuss it I will be glad.

If you want to get hurt and say I do not understand scripture because you did not like What I see in your faith system. Well then I think you need to look in the mirror.

The fact is true, In my view, your faith Gives God a bad name. Now we can discuss why. Like you can discuss why in your view my view gives God a bad name (takes away from his sovereignty)

or we can sit here and foolishly attack each other saying the other does not understand scripture. (Which I do not want to get into
 
bluejean_bible said:
No, I didn't.
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yes you did.

They can only be drawn to him and understand his gospel if he calls them , has entered into them, and left them then to understand the gospel. Otherwise,in their natural state they cannot do any of this of their own accord.
Click to expand...

This is not only an attach on my belief, but on myself. saying God entered me while I was still dead because of my sin, and prey much forced me to believe in him against my will.

This is how I see it.. So I laughed because it is what I do. to keep me from lashing out.



A bully playing the victim is reprehensible.
Imply I am of Satan again and I'll report you.
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I never implied any such thing, I just gave an opinion on what I see.

And please. what is it with you that thinks when someone counters what you say makes them a bully?



report away, If you think it will make you feel any better..

it will not stop me from showing my feelings about a doctrine I do not like. any more than it will stop you from showing your feeling about what I believe
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
yes you did.



This is not only an attach on my belief, but on myself. saying God entered me while I was still dead because of my sin, and prey much forced me to believe in him against my will.

This is how I see it.. So I laughed because it is what I do. to keep me from lashing out.




I never implied any such thing, I just gave an opinion on what I see.

And please. what is it with you that thinks when someone counters what you say makes them a bully?



report away, If you think it will make you feel any better..

it will not stop me from showing my feelings about a doctrine I do not like. any more than it will stop you from showing your feeling about what I believe
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Belief/Faith in the personal Good News is God's condition to receive the gift of salvation.

You are correct, the "tulip" doctrines and all the various derivatives have become ubiquitous because they have purposefully blanketed the churches with these teachings over time.
 
DavyP said:
One of the most important Bible Chapters that reveals what God's election is about is with Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17 just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified.

Jesus revealed 2 different groups of believers in John 17:

1. His elect Apostles, prophets, patriarchs. Jesus showed The Father originally owned them, and gave them to Jesus. He thus will often directly intervene in their lives to serve Him. This is why Lord Jesus directly intervened with Saul (Apostle Paul), converting him on the road to Damascus when Saul was persecuting the Church (Acts 9). The word apostle means to be 'sent'. Jesus said He sent these into the world, and that they are not of the world. Likewise with Jonah, he tried to get out of his duty that God gave him, but God made him fulfill it. Ownership, that's what this group is about. He already owned them before this present world. These represent Christ's "very elect". Calvinists often wrongly... apply this group to every believer, but that is not what Lord Jesus showed in John 17.

2. Those who must believe by using their own free will represent the majority of believers on The Father and The Son. This second group Jesus revealed is by their believing by His Apostle's word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). These still can use their free will to fall away, and God will allow it and will not intervene unless they repent and ask Him.

Then Jesus prayed that BOTH groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This means that the 1st group, His "very elect", cannot... fall away, because He already owns them.

But the 2nd group of believers can fall away by their own choice, and they only become part of His election while they remain walking in Christ Jesus.

This is why man's 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine is not Biblical. For the majority of us, we must... remain walking in Christ Jesus until the end, and beware of being deceived by Satan and his host. This is why Christ and His Apostles, especially Apostle Paul, gave so many warnings against falling away, especially for those in the last days. It is why He warned us about the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah that must come first playing God with the power to do miracles like Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
What a mess.

You do realize what you’re saying don’t you? You're claiming there’s two ways mankind is saved, one by God’s grace/charis: the divine influence upon the heart, and the other by efforts of man. Two different gospels?
Preposterous.

Salvation is and always has been by faith, and that not of yourselves it is a gift that no man may boast-this gift is given at the moment God reveals himself to man. Eg. Moses, Abraham, Job, the apostles…
 
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